Hi all,
I need to repair the front section of the chassis on my 3.8S it has definitely failed forward of the engine mounts on the RHS - the LHS seems at the moment OK
I can see a front repair section on Martin Robey for a Mark 2 from the engine mount forward, but nothing listed for an S type.

The question is are the Mark 2 and S-Type chassis the same at the front or not. I like the look of the repair section as it includes the suspension mount and will be much less effort to slot in (less being a relative term given how much I need to cut out to get there)

Anyone been in in this this place/fitted the mark 2 section?

Kind Regards

Steve

 

As far as I am aware the front end of the S Type and Mk2 are identical bar some minor cosmetic differences in the shape of the lights and position of the indicators. All the front subframe, brakes, steering and chassis members are the same. If there are any differences in the parts you are looking to buy a small amount of fettling should make them fit.

 

There are some inconsistencies on Robey's website and it's difficult picking parts of the pictures. I think the S type items you want are labelled 43 and 43.1 in the picture for S types. They're the same (high) price as the corresponding parts for the Mk2. I'm pretty sure they are identical. For a better price, it might be worth searching eBay or asking David Manners what they can do.

 

Depending on how much work you want to do, why not make the parts yourself?

There is a channel that I have been watching on Youtube, and the guy is a lifelong bodyman by trade and his theme of the channel is how to do things with minimal tools. Basically a welder and an angle grinder and you could make all those pieces. His video's are about an hour long, but very informative.
The channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6J...cru8XPWr3EvJnw

An example:

 

Interesting character, his video starts and ends with this "Red-Neck" sound in his voice, and then his Irish (???) accent comes through in the middle.
Lots of work for a body mount, but if one doesn't have a choice.
Something like that would have been stamped out in the factory in less then a second.

It was agonizing watching him struggle getting the bolt out of that factory square nut, I would have made a new one, or had some acetylene to do the job.

 

He's in Newfoundland.

 

I don't think his heritage is from Eastern Canada, sure doesn't sound like it _ just sayin.

 

In fact, making sheet metal parts fit can take as much or almost as much time as making them from scratch. I can't comment on Robey's parts these days, I've not bought any for 30 years. Even OE, Pressed Steel Company, ones can be awful. My preference is to make myself anything not too complicated that's made of steel that's thin enough for me to work or can be converted from a standard size. I'd never attempt a front wing, but certainly have a go at a large patch.

I've watched this YouTube series as well. There's a lot to be learnt from him and others. As for his accent, ancestral elements, Scandinavian, Irish etc, seem to have survived in Canada much more than in the US.

 

In one of his previous videos he says he's lived on The Rock all his life. We had plenty of Newfoundlanders working in Alberta during the oil boom, and he sounds like lots of the Newfies I knew.

 

I guess I’m a little doubtful of my fabrication skills…and I don’t have much in the way of metal working tools, which can be remedied . The part I was considering is this https://www.martinrobey.com/jaguar/c...nderframe/7653 which although its listed in the 3.4/3.8s section says my 2 in the description. I’m probably overthinking it and should purchase it and ‘adjust to fit’. It is not a cheap part but may save me a lot of pain.
Of more concern is losing suspension alignment/geometry and in addition to lots of pictures and measurements I’m looking to make a wooden frame around the existing rusted front section part so that whatever I replace it with should hopefully be properly lined up.

 

As long as you take measurements of the old part from lots of different fixed points and triangulate them you should not have a problem but welding and heat can distort parts so making a "JIG" of some kind to hold the item in place as it is welded would not go a miss. Using metal rods of the fixed point lengths tack welded on to the part to hold it in position before welding the part to the chassis can help. These rods can be removed, lengthened or shortened very easily and quickly to get the part in the exact position first before any welding to the chassis has taken place. Easily removed once the part is welded into place.
I used this method when I welded a chassis leg onto my Ford Anglia, worked a treat. I used 10mm rod and some 25mm x 5mm bar to get all the distances correct before welding the main structure. If triangulated across the engine bay the chassis part will not move even if you get it too hot. I also used an adjustable spirit level for comparing the angles from the original untouched side and the new side so don't cut both sides out at the same time. If you are doing both sides leave one original side in place whilst welding the new one in..
Small welds and lots of measuring.

 

I would buy the part/s from Robey & get some help fitting it/them if it falls outside your skill set. Robey's fit is as good as anybody else'. i.e. pretty good. IMHE

Crow's feet & Sub-frame parts from Robey have been used on many SA Jaguars under restoration. They are welded in proper jigs & don't arrive distorted. Standard of welding where applicable ~ top drawer.

A colleague has recently bought the entire front end for his E Type forward of the body scuttle/firewall from them & once fitted competently all measures perfectly by all reasonable standards short of a factory jig. His bonnet fit is perfect with proper alignment at the raised sill line. Sills were obviously properly installed to the body.

I can't talk for Mk2 to S Type absolute compatibility but they made as few changes as necessary on the S Type to fit the changed shell/tin parts. I.e. the crows foot might be slightly different. It was a facelift with major concentration on the IRS & long tail in mini 420G/MkX style. Front was just cosmetic really. Bonnet is identical to Mk2 ~ fenders not to accommodate changed lighting & peaks over the headlights & fogs & slightly revised grill with heavier surround & centre vane. Side lamps were deleted from top of fenders & moved to MkX/420G style to match flashers.

 

Excuse number of edits made.

 

The merits of Robey vs DIY depends a lot on how much you need to replace. If it's the whole length including the S-curve, then definitely a bought part has advantages.

For alignment, I think Cass3958 has covered it very well. My experience is that the original chassis parts, the longitudinals and the suspension/subframe take off and support were well aligned. The more superficial bodywork, wheel arches etc, shouldn't be relied on to the odd couple of mm. I'm doing the following with my car to avoid distortion:

- I've got my car supported on 6 axle stands with wooden pads. I've set them so the vertical heights of the longitudinal chassis rails and suspension attachments are equal on the left and right hand sides of the car.
- I have wooden posts/blocks under the door-posts to optimise the door fit.
- Inside the car, I have a mixture of wood and steel RHS along the length above each chassis rail. These are clamped down to the floor and are mildly compressed between the front and rear bulkheads.
- Around any underside section where I'm working, I add extra wooden support to maintain things locally. Bolt or weld in temporary reinforcing bars as appropriate and as possible.

Before cutting rusty pieces out, do all the measurements mentioned by Cass. Check the piece that you are inserting it covers the area you need and is generally correct, especially the position of any drilled holes. Cutting pieces out can be surprisingly complicated simply because of access. Once they are out and things are cleaned up, try the new pieces for fit and modify as required. Also pre-drill pilot holes that you might use for self-tapping screws or similar later. If you need to cut holes to fill up with MIG, now's a good time to do it. It's also a good time to treat any interior rust that will be enclosed by the repair. Personally, I clamp the repair section in place, then check all the alignments. If everything looks good, I take the holes for the self-tapping screws through all the layers to hold the repair more comfortably. Add more self-tappers/clamps to close joints. Next take off some of the clamps as necessary and start welding. At this stage, the welding doesn't need to be as complete as you want it finally, as much as is required for strength with the car on stands and is comfortable to do in that position. Cass and others have given me the excellent advice to buy a rotisserie and finish the car on that - it's much easier, safer and better than welding in awkward upside down positions.

For vertical alignment measurements, I use a water gauge, essentially plastic tube filled with water.

 

Excellent Rob & Peter. The only difference in SA practice was/is to use pop rivets in place of self tappers once all is aligned. That has it's pluses & minuses. Once welded you need to drill all the rivets out. If you don't they slowly corrode under your chosen skim/coating & a little lump appears. With Peter's method you are able to remove the entire screw. With pop rivets you could leave a bit of rivet in a blind area ~ not that I've ever heard any rattle etc complaints. The factory in SA always used pop rivets at the advice of Jaguar & did not remove the 3 per side on the C post after welding (why I don't know. They drilled all the others out apart from the sill to fender from time to time). Then over time 3 little bumps appeared on the C post of SA built cars. Bodies here were assembled over Browns Lane supplied wooden & steel jigs. On my S Type one of the first things I did was to drill out those 6 C post rivets & re body solder/lead wipe. The same would apply to any joint. Some could have more layers. The sub-frame just would not require to be as well finished.

 

Some really good advice coming from all of these posts.
I had a welder come around today to give me his views - whilst he was happy to fabricate he was definitely of the opinion that if there is a premade part of the right dimensions it was a much better place to start. On the bright side if I need to call someone in he's only about 500 yards from where I live

I probably need to replace the section forward of the engine mounts to the front of the car but including the all important suspension mount - the Robey part actually includes the engine mount area as well so it is a good starting point.
I'm hoping to drop the engine down tomorrow as I don't want any weight anywhere near where I'm going to work and it will be essential to get the proper cross-bracing in place.

I also need to remove the brake servo and reservac tank

I will post some pics of the existing 'disaster area' when I get a chance

Thanks so much for all the advice

Steve
I really appreciate all of the advice

 

Why not ask Martin Robey if the part is also OK for an S-type. It doesn't look outrageously expensive, and like all MR parts will (1) fit, and (2) be the correct gauge steel.

As far as I know, the front end substructure of the S-type is identical to the Mark 2, it is when one looks at the body aft of the A post that differences start to appear. However, hear this - when I was rebuilding a Mark 2 in the 80s the original doors were beyond repair, so I bought a set of S-type doors and had the Mark 2 latch fittings on the original doors transferred to the S-type doors. This was done by Martin Robey, and one couldn't tell any mods had been done, the job was perfect. BTW the rebuild took 7 years 1981-1988 and I got married in 1981 and was still married to the same girl in 1988, and she is still with me as I type this, 41 years on Wednesday 12th April ! The car is long gone, though !!!

 

Congratulations on the anniversary Fraser.

 

Yes, congratulations Fraser. I have a similar history, all starting a year later, car rebuild and marriage, both, as business types say, ongoing. Though there have been some very long breaks in the rebuild.

I have a prejudice against pop rivets, Glyn. They save time, but there are the problems you mentioned if they are left in place. If drilled out, the remnants may be rattling around forever in enclosed sections.

 

Yes Peter. I personally like your screw idea. I think the reason we have no complaints from small bits of rivet remaining after drilling here is that we all in SA pump Tectyl ~ Solvent/Wax/AntiOX/Anti Rust or similar products into all blind sections & the bits of rivet get stuck in the WAX. Our preference for Tectyl is: it creeps into seams & skins over after a couple of weeks. We make a similar product but if you park in the sun it melts out slightly for about 6 months ~ Petrolatum based & does not skin. Creeps well. e,g, Door seams.

Product used = Tectyl 506 (available in all packaging from Spay cans to 5 litres, 20 litres & Drums. I buy it in 20 litre pails generally & the odd spray can. Valvoline are the opposition to our large Multinational oilco. That is my level of faith in Tectyl.