Hello again everybody. Thank you for for all your help so far. i am not moderated now so I am sorry it took a while to answer your questions. I think I answered a few in a row and it thought I was spamming.

So I have been looking into stuff, with the mindset of, I can communicate with the Main ECU and nothing else so what physically and electronically happens next in the chain. Now I did have an abs fault light on my dash for 2 days before the starter packed up. But the starter was physically damaged so that was a separate thing. I think maybe there was a fault with another system and once the battery was disconnected it drained its caps and never came back to life or some such thing. What I am thinking is, from what I have read :

Next link in the chain from main ecu seems to be the Powertrain Control Module, which talks to the ABS module. Maybe the PCM was having issues talking to the ABS which is fine, or maybe the ABS isnt fine.

However, I can not communicate with the PCM in the IDS Software either, or anything after it. I am going to swap the 2 PCM relays with the wiper relay and another one that's not important in starting such as the windshield heater relay. I will 50thripple check the ABS and PCM fuses and swap them anyway. I can also see there is a PCM Diode, looks like a fuse type thing, in the fuse box. Unsure how to check that but if it looks obviously burnt or something maybe there is the problem.


Is anyone able to offer any guidance? i can swap the fuses and relays over and if things start acting different, I am onto something, but if not, I have a mustimeter etc, never really used one tho. What would you recommend doing after that to follow this thought process, if it seems like a valid one to you?

I just think, with everything happening when I changed the starter, it would be too much of a coincidence for a wire to suddenly corrode or break at exactly the same time I change my starter. Although I can see logically how a break like that would make sense, it would be very very weird for it to happen right then. I know coincidences do happen, but my mind takes me to a the thoughts of a system having some intermittent communication stopping all else in the chain from communicating, and powering down completely maybe took any residual power from that system and it shut off and wont come on again.

 

I still wonder if the no comm issue is a red herring. In other words, the apparent problem is only with the scanner and not the car itself. Just a thought, that’s all.

What if we approach the problem as if you didn’t have a scanner? One quick thought is do a click test of the starter relay. Place your finger on the starter relay while a helper turns the key to start. If all prerequisites are good, the starter relay will receive a start command. The relay should click. Please note this does NOT confirm the starter relay is actually sending power to the starter. It only confirms the relay has received the command.

If no click, swap with a known good relay from another system and try again.

If still no click, look at the indicator lights on the bezel at the base of the shift lever. If P or N is not illuminated, the start command will be inhibited. If P won’t illuminate, try shifting to N and see if that makes any difference.

 

The modules are not connected in a chain.

However, from the work done on the car it's unlikely modules are damaged.

A typical OBD tool will only talk to the PCM (aka ECM).

If you have IDS (or WDS) and a suitable interface for it (*), most of the modules in your era car (2001? be sure from the VIN what MY it is!) use SCP (aka J1850 PWM).

If IDS can't talk to SCP modules chances are it's the OBD tool or a pin in the DLC (OBD socket) or of course some sort of power/ground issue - the last item might be relevant given the work recently done.

Also - could your OBD tool see modules before the work that it can't see now?

(*) and preferably a hefty power supply as required by IDS

 

Jon,

A tech at Internet Brands responded to me and said that your messages were being caught in the forum cadence filter. He has changed the settings for your account so you should not experience future problems. Please let me know if you do.

Cheers,

Don

 

Hey mate. P and N do light up. The relay doesnt click and I have seapped it around to check. If I bridge the relay thebstarter turns but the steering lock and fuel system dont unlock and start.

 

Did you have the key in the RUN position during this test (Position II)?

 

I did. Also tried without. Both many many times

 

Hey, I have a Mongoose cable I bought and the IDS Legacy Software. My car is a 1999 so will only run that version. I didn't have these before the problem started, I got them in hope of trying to fix/diagnose the issue, so I don't know what faults would have read before hand. I have checked the ground on the starter motor and it is all connected properly, but a few people and searches have signified it may be a ground issue. but I have no clue where to look after checking the starter itself. And given that is the only area of the car worked on seems like it would have been there, but I can't see anything disconnected or broken.

 

Sounds like it's possible the cable doesn't work properly.

Or, it's something like power/ground/fuse/relay.

There may be pinpoint tests for those in the Workshop manual.

 

Thanks

 

Some more thoughts, of varying usefulness. Long thread, so please correct me if I've overlooked some details mentioned earlier. Today's line of thinking is based on the PATS indicator light not showing anything amiss.

Some of the symptoms point to PATS not recognizing the key. I had wondered if the magic bean had fallen out of the key. This is the coded chip that talks to the PATS transponder. But you've tried two keys, right? That would rule out the missing magic bean theory.

But what if the PATS transponder wasn't receiving power? That might explain some things.

I did a little quick research. Looks like two things have to happen for PATS to power up and prove the key is good. If PATS isn't active, it's not going to report a fault. It just thinks it is switched off, a normal condition, and thus no fault code.

Step 1: Key in the tumbler appears to start the proving sequence. There's a switch on the shutter that closes off the tumbler. Insert the key and the shutter is pushed open. A position switch sends a signal to start the proving process. Not 100% sure, but believe the shutter switch prevents the PATS transponder from operating all the time and possibly depleting the battery. No point in running all the time. This step most likely doesn't do any key proving. My best guess is it's simply a wake-up call to activate the system.

Step 2: If the correctly cut key is inserted, it is able to mechanically turn the tumbler. Once in the run position, PATS receives power via a different route (not the wake-up circuit) and starts proving the key. The engine will actually start before proving is complete but if the process fails, the fuel injectors are shut off several seconds later.

Now please don't take this Reader's Digest condensed version as gospel. It is just what I have extrapolated.

So a few things you can check:

Look at the shutter where the key is inserted. Make sure it closes when the key is removed. Just a hunch, but the system may need to see the key removed before starting the proving process.

The main PATS power comes via relay #1 in the trunk. This relay is energized with the key to run or start. Have a helper turn the key while you feel for a click. Be careful, as adjacent relays 2, 4, and 5 also cycle at the same time. Make sure you're not feeling a click from one of those relays.

At the rear power panel, check fuse F22. This is the power source for the key-in circuit.

At the primary junction box (small panel inside the cabin) check fuses F17 and F24.

There's also a circuit that turns off the stereo during engine start. Turn on the radio. Turn the key to start and the sound should cut out even if the starter doesn't kick in.

 

Another thought, wondering if the new starter could somehow be related to the bevy of new faults. Kind of a long shot, but maybe it's drawing excess current and reducing available voltage to other circuits.

For a quick test, unplug the starter relay and turn the key to start. Obviously the starter won't respond, but see if the other symptoms clear up.

 

When key out PATS light should flash regularly & slowly.

If PATS is unhappy it flashes a code - count the pattern for a few mins until you're sure of it.

If it's not unhappy then there's no PATS issue.

 

Thanks I will check all this as soon as I can

 

Some more industrial-grade thinking on my TheoryDuJour™ of PATS not realizing the key has been inserted, and thus no fault codes.

Does your car have memory seats? Does it have the small rotary knob on the side of the steering column, labeled AUTO and OFF? Here's a slightly blurry pic on my LHD car:





I'm a big guy so I normally keep the driver's seat fully aft. But when I have a passenger behind me, I'll move the seat forward a little bit. When I remove the key, and that switch is in the AUTO position, the seat moves fully aft and the steering column moves forward for extra clearance. I'm not 100% positive, but believe the key-in signal is from the same switch that also talks to PATS.

So if your car has that same AUTO/OFF switch, put it in AUTO. Insert the key (no need to turn it yet) and move the seat forward a little bit. When you remove the key, does the seat move aft and the steering column move forward? That should give us a clue if the switch is working properly, if indeed it's the same switch that talks to PATS.

 

Hey mate. Yes I have memory seats and steering and that all works as intended. I can also calibrate the seats using the cable. I bought a circuit tester and a relay tester last night to learn to use, and use this weekend. Happy days!

 

Post #53 is simple!

 

Yes. My PATS is flashing as it would in a normal working scenario. It lighta up for 2 seconds when I put in the key signifying no error.

 

It's not an immo problem. No need to go troubleshooting that. Karl can suggest what to do otherwise, I expect - may be already posted.

 

Well, my brain is tapped out. My latest thought (aka rabbit trail) had been PATS was not seeing the presence of the key for some unknown reason. Now if PATS was not seeing the key, that can be a normal condition, such as when the car is parked and the key is hanging on a hook inside the house. Normal condition = no fault code. But that doesn't seem to be the case anymore, although it wouldn't hurt to check the fuses previously suggested. Other than that, I really have no clue what to suggest next.