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SDD and Transmission/TCM Adaption Help Needed

 
  #1  
Old 04-16-2019, 12:24 AM
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Default SDD and Transmission/TCM Adaption Help Needed

I have a 2005 S-type 3.0 and several months ago obtained a SDD for the car and have done various things with it. I decided to remove all the previous adaptions from the TCM and then according to the attached TSB attempted to reset the adaptions for fine-tuning reasons and no problem reason.. All set as they were supposed to except the "E" clutch 3-4 upshift.using the SDD adaptions program. This thereby renders a harsh shift and then some stumbles in that area. I have attempted to maintain constant speed in gear 3 to get the torque band in proper range, but that seems not to stay in third for long and will not reset and then has a very harsh shift to fourth as if hunting and then is seems to lose where it is. All the other got the 3 green check marks and the "H" won't show the MBAR either while the others do. If I keep at it long enough I get a gear box fault until I turn the car off and back on. I feel I am just plain stupid on this and there must be a simple way to accomplish or work around the issue. Should I again erase the adaptions and start over and if so- what is the easiest way to get these adaptions to to set properly. especially the "E" clutch. Or am I doing too much and should erase the adaptions again and just drive normally and it will eventually find the right settings? If so, what speed and rpm would be important to keep it under or around? Should I just drive it very lightly for 100-200 miles and depend on it finding itself the correct pressure shift points? I know I do not need to use the sport mode and very rarely do anyway.

Thanks

Tom in Plano/Dallas
 
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
TSB Tranny.pdf (371.5 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by jazzwineman; 04-16-2019 at 01:30 AM.
  #2  
Old 04-16-2019, 09:55 AM
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Hi Tom,

Getting all of those clutches to give you three green check marks can be very time consuming, and that E clutch seems to always be one of the hardest to complete. It helps if you have a good level driving circuit where you can maintain the speeds and engine loads necessary, and a light touch on the accelerator pedal. It has sometimes taken me more than an hour to get three green checks for all five or six criteria.

If I understand your post correctly, you cleared the Mechatronic/TCM adaptations, but did not flush the fluid or update/reflash the firmware. Clearing the adaptations without changing fluid or reflashing causes the TCM to have to completely relearn both the fluid slippage characteristics and your driving style, so there is not really any benefit unless other issues were present.

Flushing the fluid will help by giving the TCM the new fluid slippage characteristics it expects at its default or baseline settings. The friction characteristics of old fluid are deteriorated and require significant adaptation by the TCM. Motorcraft Mercon SP is available at Ford dealerships, Advance Auto Parts stores, and elsewhere, typically for about $10 per quart. You will need 10-12 quarts to do a full flush.

If you have SDD v131.03 with the full calibration file package, it is possible to update the firmware to the last version (dated 2006, I think), which resolves some harsh shifting issues. This assumes you are using a genuine Drew Technologies Mongoose or Ford VCM interface. The update is possible with some of the clone cables but not with others, so there is some risk involved in making the attempt. It is possible to brick your TCM. It is also critical to follow all of the instructions and steps, including having your computer plugged in and not just running on its battery, and having a battery maintainer connected to the car's battery for the entire process (Jaguar specifies the expensive Midtronics PSC-550 50-amp unit, but some members have managed with good battery chargers). Updating the firmware will usually improve shifting and will probably make it slightly easier for you to complete the adaptations cycle. But once again, it is possible to brick your TCM!

If you are using a version of SDD other than v131.03, your package may not have the necessary calibration files to do a reflash.

Cheers,

Don
 

Last edited by Don B; 04-16-2019 at 10:15 AM.
  #3  
Old 04-16-2019, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Don B View Post
Hi Tom,

Getting all of those clutches to give you three green check marks can be very time consuming, and that E clutch seems to always be one of the hardest to complete. It helps if you have a good level driving circuit where you can maintain the speeds and engine loads necessary, and a light touch on the accelerator pedal. It has sometimes taken me more than an hour to get three green checks for all five or six criteria.

If I understand your post correctly, you cleared the Mechatronic/TCM adaptations, but did not flush the fluid or update/reflash the firmware. Clearing the adaptations without changing fluid or reflashing causes the TCM to have to completely relearn both the fluid slippage characteristics and your driving style, so there is not really any benefit unless other issues were present.

Flushing the fluid will help by giving the TCM the new fluid slippage characteristics it expects at its default or baseline settings. The friction characteristics of old fluid are deteriorated and require significant adaptation by the TCM. Motorcraft Mercon SP is available at Ford dealerships, Advance Auto Parts stores, and elsewhere, typically for about $10 per quart. You will need 10-12 quarts to do a full flush.

If you have SDD v131.03 with the full calibration file package, it is possible to update the firmware to the last version (dated 2006, I think), which resolves some harsh shifting issues. This assumes you are using a genuine Drew Technologies Mongoose or Ford VCM interface. The update is possible with some of the clone cables but not with others, so there is some risk involved in making the attempt. It is possible to brick your TCM. It is also critical to follow all of the instructions and steps, including having your computer plugged in and not just running on its battery, and having a battery maintainer connected to the car's battery for the entire process (Jaguar specifies the expensive Midtronics PSC-550 50-amp unit, but some members have managed with good battery chargers). Updating the firmware will usually improve shifting and will probably make it slightly easier for you to complete the adaptations cycle. But once again, it is possible to brick your TCM!

If you are using a version of SDD other than v131.03, your package may not have the necessary calibration files to do a reflash.

Cheers,

Don
Thanks. I have that version of the SDD, but I had done by jag shortly after I got the car all the flash updates and checked with them a year ago and there was nothing new to my car. I think I just need to drive it in the suggested 1800-2000 rpm range and let it find itself. I have reset the adapting that did not work, reset everything else by battery disconnection and now will warm up the car and see what we can do

If I just drive it normally, but carefully will is find it's own way around? I did not have any shifting issues at all, but was told a rest would fine tune the transmission- idiot I am- I listened to someone that did not know the entire story.
Thanks

Tom
 
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:02 AM
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Hey Tom
When i did mine, i drove normally with two rules....no sport mode and no hard accelerartion to force a downshift and try to keep rpm 2500 or lower for at least 100 miles...worked great
 
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by scottjh9 View Post
Hey Tom
When i did mine, i drove normally with two rules....no sport mode and no hard accelerartion to force a downshift and try to keep rpm 2500 or lower for at least 100 miles...worked great

Thanks. I will try that and see what gives. Did you use the SDD program and monitor or just drive carefully for 100 miles or so?

TBB
 
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Old 04-16-2019, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzwineman View Post
Thanks. I have that version of the SDD, but I had done by jag shortly after I got the car all the flash updates and checked with them a year ago and there was nothing new to my car. I think I just need to drive it in the suggested 1800-2000 rpm range and let it find itself. I have reset the adapting that did not work, reset everything else by battery disconnection and now will warm up the car and see what we can do

If I just drive it normally, but carefully will is find it's own way around? I did not have any shifting issues at all, but was told a rest would fine tune the transmission- idiot I am- I listened to someone that did not know the entire story.
Hi Tom,


The graphic bar on the adaptations procedure screen helps tell you how much throttle you need, but it's not easy to keep it in that range. That's what I meant about the light foot.

If you're still on your original fluid, I would strongly recommend you flush it since all of these cars are now well past ZF's revised 8-year limit regardless of mileage. There's really not much point in re-adapting the TCM to old fluid.

I have not encountered a gearbox fault while performing the adaptations procedure. I believe somewhere, possibly in the TSB, it advises against hard acceleration, especially wide-open throttle (WOT), but I try to drive with a gentle throttle to promote smooth gearshifts, and to the degree possible, keep that bar in the optimum range until the adaptations for all the steps are complete. One thing that may help is to read the requirement for completing each step - they are not all the same.

Cheers,

Don
 

Last edited by Don B; 04-16-2019 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 04-16-2019, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Don B View Post
Hi Tom,


The graphic bar on the adaptations procedure screen helps tell you how much throttle you need, but it's not easy to keep it in that range. That's what I meant about the light foot.

If you're still on your original fluid, I would strongly recommend you flush it since all of these cars are now well past ZF's revised 8-year limit regardless of mileage. There's really not much point in re-adapting the TCM to old fluid.

I have not encountered a gearbox fault while performing the adaptations procedure. I believe somewhere, possibly in the TSB, it advises against hard acceleration, especially wide-open throttle (WOT), but I try to drive with a gentle throttle to promote smooth gearshifts, and to the degree possible, keep that bar in the optimum range until the adaptations for all the steps are complete. One thing that may help is to read the requirement for completing each step - they are not all the same.

Cheers,

Don
I went out and drove about an hour and 25 miles around side streets and some open roads that are not used much. I got 3 ticks on everything and showing Mbars for all but E. Almost every time I am in 3rd it will have stumbling trouble getting into 4th and after 3 of those I get gearbox fault- stop turn the car off and on and try to repeat, All the other gears clutches are working with ease and are fine and smooth. I was trying to keep it at 2000 rpm and when it got to about 2000 the ***** from 1-2 and 2-3 are fine. However when it approaches 2000rpm for a kick to 4th it wants to stumble- if I accelerate to about 2800 in a steady way it shifts fine to 4. I have not had a fluid change in a long time- could that be the issue although I never had this trouble before with anything transmission related on the car I am going out and try again in a few minutes. It seems especially hard to get the E clutch in the right torque range to cause it to kick to 4. Any other suggestions

Thanks

Tom
 

Last edited by jazzwineman; 04-16-2019 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:48 PM
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Things seem much better this afternoon. I have driven around the city for about 65 miles and finally have got the shift of 3-4 where it is not causing a gearbox fault and trying to rev the rpms. Apparently it wanted a higher rpm to make the shift and now it seems almost normal . Once in a while a touch rougher than normal, but no more lurching the rpms upward and throwing gearbox fault. Of course that is today and tomorrow waits- ha!

I called several garages in the area and one wanted (900 or 1100 with this data-port plug to do a fluid change and said I should always change the data-port plug as they always leak from their seal inside. I have not heard anyone on the forum indicate that. Is there any validity to such? Of course I am not going to tha group as I don't trust them. (as they were saying that the shifting problem could be real serious event though I told them I had zero problems until the adaptions were cleared) I have another that was referred by a client (who is a major muffler dealer) and is one the largest family owned transmission shops in Dallas and they will do the job for $325.00

Thanks all
Tom
 

Last edited by jazzwineman; 04-16-2019 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzwineman View Post
I called several garages in the area and one wanted (00 to do a fluid change and said I should always change the data-point plug as they always leak from their seal inside. I have not heard anyone on the forum indicate that. Is there any validity to such?
Are they talking about the infamous ZF connector sleeve?

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...ics-faq-30991/
 
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kr98664 View Post
Are they talking about the infamous ZF connector sleeve?

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...ics-faq-30991/
No they were talking about a data-port plug and they already wanted $900 for the job and were going to charge me another $200 to do a data-port plug and I can't even find it for sale anywhere. I have yet to look at the JDC. The sleeve was included in the $900 price.

I don't want to get into one of these brand wars, but the people I am going to have do it will you AMSOIL tranny fluid. Are there any reported problems with AMSOIL?

Thanks

Tom
 
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzwineman View Post
will use AMSOIL tranny fluid.
Um, Tom, no matter what brand, the preferred term is gender confirmation fluid.
 
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by kr98664 View Post
Um, Tom, no matter what brand, the preferred term is gender confirmation fluid.
And what can I say to that !!?


Tom
 
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:10 PM
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Amsoil is top of the line...a lot of owners use it as first choice....usually have to purchase online or at a shop.... everything for 325 is a steal....usually that is barely the price for parts and fluid if you are lucky
 
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzwineman View Post
However when it approaches 2000rpm for a kick to 4th it wants to stumble- if I accelerate to about 2800 in a steady way it shifts fine to 4. I have not had a fluid change in a long time- could that be the issue
Hi Tom,

I'm glad it's behaving better now, but one thing I forgot about is that I think I recall that prior to performing the adaptation procedure the vehicle is supposed to have no DTCs present. Do you have any engine performance-related DTCs stored that could affect engine running around 2,000 rpm?

Cheers,

Don
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Don B View Post
Hi Tom,

I'm glad it's behaving better now, but one thing I forgot about is that I think I recall that prior to performing the adaptation procedure the vehicle is supposed to have no DTCs present. Do you have any engine performance-related DTCs stored that could affect engine running around 2,000 rpm?

Cheers,

Don
Zip- ZERO

TBB
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Don B View Post
Hi Tom,

I'm glad it's behaving better now, but one thing I forgot about is that I think I recall that prior to performing the adaptation procedure the vehicle is supposed to have no DTCs present. Do you have any engine performance-related DTCs stored that could affect engine running around 2,000 rpm?

Cheers,

Don
I have only one problem left and remember before the adaption erasure I had no problem with the transmission. If I let it go through a slower speed shirt- gear 2 and 3 will get to about 1800-2100 rpm and shift very smooth, however at the same speed trying to get from 3- 4 gives me a jolt and sometimes will not go and then gearbox fault (when this occurs if seems to try and rev the rpms upward) and I can add a touch of pedal and it will go to 4 then. If I start out a little faster and the shift points from 1 -2-3 move up to abut 2600 rpm- then going from 3-4 is no problem at all and a smooth shift. I have not had the car above 50 since I started the re-adaption and have been fooling around in city traffic and the few times the roads are clear.

Is this still some part of adaption that is still needed or an even better sign that I need a fluid change ASAP. I understand that erasing the adaptions with old fluid is never recommended- so color me stupid.

Any ideas or does getting new fluid make the most sense to solve this problem. The car has no other problems other than a need to change the front shocks- which is not relevant to this.

Thanks

Tom
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:45 PM
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Tom,

Sounds like your E Clutch is almost ready to give the ghost.

Had the same issue and the fluid change made the issue more pronounced. Had to literally let off the gas pedal to get the trans to upshift to 4th gear, otherwise a bang and the "transmission fault" message.

After clearing adaptions, flashing TCM to latest version and swapping out seals, bridge seal and new fluid (lifeguard6) and filter & sleeve - no change, same issue.

And a squalk...
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzwineman View Post
I have only one problem left and remember before the adaption erasure I had no problem with the transmission.
I definitely think it would be worth flushing your fluid to see if the behavior improves. Since you have old fluid now, the TCM is having to work its way toward the very limits of its adaptation capacity. New fluid should allow it to adapt more comfortably within its pre-programmed limits.

At least by flushing the fluid you will rule it out as a possible cause of/contributor to the problem and will then have a better idea of whether the E clutch may have developed a problem.

Cheers,

Don
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Don B View Post
I definitely think it would be worth flushing your fluid to see if the behavior improves. Since you have old fluid now, the TCM is having to work its way toward the very limits of its adaptation capacity. New fluid should allow it to adapt more comfortably within its pre-programmed limits.

At least by flushing the fluid you will rule it out as a possible cause of/contributor to the problem and will then have a better idea of whether the E clutch may have developed a problem.

Cheers,

Don
Hey Tom...i agree with Don... especially at the price you said... can't hurt...there is a good video done by zf engineers about why change the fluid...its in german with subtitles and very informative...you will like it.... i don't remember how i found it though..,.they give a nice explanation of how their transmission works with actual valve body and clutches shown
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by abonano View Post
Tom,

Sounds like your E Clutch is almost ready to give the ghost.

Had the same issue and the fluid change made the issue more pronounced. Had to literally let off the gas pedal to get the trans to upshift to 4th gear, otherwise a bang and the "transmission fault" message.

After clearing adaptions, flashing TCM to latest version and swapping out seals, bridge seal and new fluid (lifeguard6) and filter & sleeve - no change, same issue.

And a squalk...
Mine is a little different in that it will at a higher RPM work perfectly. It is when the shifting occurs at the 1800-2100 area. At 2400 or above- it is fine. The car ran quite well and after clearing the adaptions all this happened it makes me think the fluid is the issue vs a clutch. I have no squawk. At lower rpms it seems not to try and shift up to 4.

I will have to get the fluid changed and see what happens. Actually lifting my foot off the gas pedal does not help , but if I step on it a little when it is in the 1800-2100 area it will shift.

Thanks

TBB
 

Last edited by jazzwineman; 04-17-2019 at 06:59 PM.

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