Hey guys, am a newbie. My wife has had this X-type 2.5 5-speed since 2004 and it has been a good car. As always it is put up for the winter and the battery is pulled. So this spring I made sure the battery was charged and installed it. She fired right up. Now my wife is the only driver and frankly she does not drive it very much. Yesterday she told me that she tried to drive it (first time in a month or two I bet two) and it would not start. (Starter would not engage). So I put the battery charger on it and it showed 12.4 volts but I put it on auto charge at 20 amps and left it until the charger turned off showing fully charged. By the way the battery is 2 years old and is a good battery. Today she went to start it and again the starter would not engage. So I looked things over and cleaned the battery terminals, and the ground for the computer. Then I pulled and looked at every fuse and none were blown. I then pushed the reset button on the passenger side near the foot well. Told her to start it and again no starter. So, my next step is I told her to put the key on but not hit the starter. I jumped the solenoid and the starter worked just fine but the engine would not start. So that is telling me it is either fuel or ignition. When you turn the key on you can hear a buzzing for a few seconds so that is probably the fuel pump charging the system. So we are down to ignition including the fuel injectors. Now I am at a loss. Any ideas before I go out and buy a new computer? By the way just in case I have a bad cell I out the charger back on the battery on the 150 amp charge mode and still nothing. While I am not familiar with this car with the key on I see no warning lights or check engine notices. So I am stumped. May I impose on any of you who many have any ideas of where to go at this point?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Bob

 

Bob, as silly as this may sound, first off, try using the other key to see if the problem is the same with that one. It has happened before where the computer has lost the programming to a key and it will not allow the key to start the car. Yes, the key can be cut correctly, but the computer needs to see a set of numbers from the key and have that set of number match what the computer has been told is an acceptable key.

The other thing I would do is look at the center console when you are starting the car. Next to the change holder, there is a red light there (see if flash periodically when the car is parked). The light should be off when attempting to start the car. If that light is on when you are starting the car, this is telling you that the computer is recognizing that it is being told the start, but it is not liking the information that it is getting. The instrument cluster should also have a warning saying something to the effect of "Security Fail". This would be another sign that the computer does not like the key numbers it is getting.

Just to ask another silly question, are all the applicable lights coming on on the instrument cluster. keep in mind that the instrument cluster and the security module talk with each other. You would not be the first person to have an instrument cluster crap out on them, leading to this condition. If you need to know how to test the instrument cluster, let me know.

 

Thank you for the reply. We have two keys and yes I had her try them both. I do not see any red lights on when she is trying to start it but my wife did mention that the gas gauge use to go up to full when the key is first turned on and now does not move and is sitting on empty. All of the outside lights work, the horn works, etc. I asked her if there are any red lights and she said no. She said the only lights that come on when the key is on is the oil pressure light and the air bag light, She said she "thinks" a security light use to come on (and then go out) but she said she does not see that light come on any longer.


Bob

 

On manual transmission cars there's an interlock switch on the clutch pedal to prevent starting car in gear. You'll have to pull the cover under the steering wheel to get to it. There's also a starter relay at position R12 in the underhood fuse box. I'd check both of those first.

 

Thank you. I will take a look at them, but a question, even if the starter or the relay had issues, why wouldn't the car start with the key in the on position and I jump the starter? I can get it to roll over but the engine will not start. So it is not getting fuel or spark and I can hear the fuel pump running so something (I think) is keeping the fuel injectors and/or spark off. Certainly has me scratching my head.


Bob

 

LittleJag, keep in mind that the fuel injectors require a certain amount of fuel pressure to properly atomize the fuel. If the pressure is not high enough, it doesn't get atomized correctly and the amount of fuel getting into the engine is much less. I would say to first try cranking over the car and have a second person near the exhaust to see if they can smell fuel coming out the tail pipe. That is the quick and easy check. The better check is to connect a fuel pressure gauge to the schrader valve (by the front, passenger tire for a US car), on top of the engine. SHould be reading 50 psi with the key in the RUN position and the engine not running. If it is down around 40 psi (or less), then this is a sign that the fuel pump is having issues. Just because the pump is running does not mean it is making the proper pressure.

As for testing the instrument cluster, what you need to do is to look on the end of the wiper stalk for the TRIP button. You need to depress the button and continue holding the button in as you turn the key to the RUN position. Keep depressing the button till you see the message center say something to the effect of "Engineering Test". Release the button at this point. If you press the trip button quickly (in and out) one more time, you should see all the lights on the instrument cluster light. Another quick tap of the TRIP button and you should see all the gauges do a full sweep. If you are not seeing this happen, this would be indicative of a failure of the instrument cluster.

Something that you need to keep in mind is that if the security fails on the car, it does two things. It prevents the engine from being able to turn over, but it also kills the spark to the plugs. So, a security failure will cause what you are seeing (ie, good fuel, but no spark).

 

Thanks. I will hook up my pressure gauge tonight and check that plus try the instrument cluster check. I think for the heck of it I will try jumping the battery with another vehicle. Now, a stupid question I bet, can I hook a test light to the spark plug connector and jump the starter with the key on to look for power?

 

You might want to view some videos on No Crank No Start. Here's one from Eric The Car Guy:

Also check Scotty Kilmer's YouTube channel.

 

Will do. Appreciate the suggestion.


Bob

 

OK. So I looked it over myself (wife's car and I never drive it and rarely ride in it) and find that when you put the key on the red security light comes on for perhaps 3 of 4 seconds and then goes off and that is it. Tried to test the cluster by pushing and holding the trip button and then turning on the ignition and got nothing. No message at all. Not sure what is supposed to happen as I am not at all familiar with this car but nothing at all happens on the cluster other than the oil pressure light coming on. None of the gauges move when the key is turned. I tried to check the fuel pressure but of course the tester I have does not have an adapter that will fit the Jag valve. I am hoping the red security light coming on and then going off will give someone an idea. It is just too hot to deal with this at the moment but my next step is to check the volts and amps at the starter and to see if the small solenoid wire gets power when the key is turned to start which I am sure it will not. From there I guess I start checking for power at all the fuses. The closest Jag dealer is 50 miles and I am not sure I can tow this on a dolly given it is awd so I sure hope I can figure a way to get it started. I watched several U-Tube videos on the no start no crank issue but none applied as most were a bad battery, bad solenoid or started or blown engine.


Any other ideas guys?


Thanks,


Bob

 

I'd start with the basics. Pull battery out of the car and take it to Interstate or Sears for a full load test. Before it goes back in car I'd check the battery cables full-length to make sure there's no corrosion issues for either positive or ground connections. Have you found the starter relay at position R12 underhood?

 

LittleJag, well, your red light is telling me that the car is seeing the key. So, that is a good thing as that is also telling me that the instrument cluster is most likely not your problem (granted, seems to be acting funny to me though).

So, lets give this a try. Go out to the car and open the hood. Access the fuse box under the hood. ON the side nearest the bumper, you should see 2 large relays there (R9 and R10). I want you to switch those 2 relays and then attempt to start the car again. If the motor cranks over now, you simply have a bad relay (what is now in the R9 position). In this case until you replace the R9 relay, your low beam headlights will not work. If you need your headlights, then swap the bad relay with R1 (that is for your wiper motors) unless you have a heated windshield (you will see small wires at the base of the front windshield, like the wires that you have on the rear window), then replace with R2.

If that doesn't work, put the relays back to how you found them other than reinstalling relay R10. If you look on the side of the relay (normally where the pins stick out), you will see that next to each pin is a number (1 through 5). I want you to take a piece of wire (say 16 gauge, maybe a little heavier if you have it) and install a small piece (about 4 inches long) between pins 3 and 5 as you have a second person turning the key. What you are going to attempt to do is together, turn the key as you insert the piece of wire, let the engine roll for say 2 seconds (or the engine starts) and then remove the wire and let the key go to the RUN position. What you are doing is essentially acting as the relay.

Not to confuse you, but there is no relay R12 under the hood of your car. That would apply to the later cars after the wiring update going in. Any which way, installing the jumper wire should force the starter to engage and roll the motor.

 

Thank you for the suggestions. The battery is fine. This is its second year and it is an 80 month battery. I have tested it in my V8 truck and it starts that fine, while with the truck battery the Jag did nothing. I can also jump the starter with a screwdriver and it rolls over fine with that battery but the car will not start so it has to be that the ignition and/or fuel injection is not functioning. Yes, I have found the relay but do not know how test it so I suppose I may as well buy a new one. The cables look good and have been cleaned every year. No fraying. My wife tells me the security light use to blink 2 or 3 times before and the gas gauge always swept to full when you turned the key on. Now the light flashes once and the gauge does not move. I truly believe it is a security problem but am not sure what to do about it.


Bob

 

Thank you Thermo. I was responding to the message before you and then I saw your response. I will try switching the relays tomorrow when I get home. So the fact that I can force it to engage the starter but it will not run does not mean anything? I will stop at Harbor Freight tomorrow and see if I can buy some different adapters for my fuel pressure gauge and see what if any pressure we have.


Bob

 

LittleJag, think of a relay as am amplifier. It takes a small signal (from your ignition switch) and makes it so the large current for the starter can be applied. Where the security system comes in is that your ignition switch applies the 12VDC to the low power side and the ECM provides the ground to actuate the relay. If the ECM does not see the necessary information, it will not provide the ground (it also will not provide the signals to fire the coils). So, the trick now is to figure out if the problem lies with the starter circuit or the coil circuit. Based on the red light in the center console, it would appear to be a starter circuit problem.

 

Now that makes perfect sense. I will do the switch tonight as soon as I get home. And again I thank you for you time and knowledge.


Bob

 

OK, I bought a proper fuel pressure tester and when you turn the key on I get just about 50 pounds.


Next I reversed relay 9 and 10 and still no crank. Again, knowing I have fuel pressure I turned the key on and jumped the starter. It cranked fine but no start. Now I was about to try jumping pole 5 to pole 3 on relay 10 and for the heck of it I checked each plug of that relay for power with my tester. Putting the clip on the negative pole with the ignition off I found power only to plug 5.(rear plug) No change with the ignition on. Then I found with the clip on the positive pole of the battery I get a light with the ignition off only on plug 3 (front plug). There was no difference with the ignition on. So as it sits if I put the clip into plug 3 and probe plug 5 I get a light. So are you sure you want me to jump 5 and 3 with the ignition in starter mode? Sounds to me like I would jump 5 and 2 (or 1).


Thanks,


Bob

 

Bob, terminals 1 and 2 are the control signal (ie, low current) side of the relay. When you turn the ignition switch to START, you should see Terminal 1 go from 0 VDC to 12 VDC. If you remove relay 10 and do a resistance check of slot 2 (inside the fuse box) to chassis ground, as the key is moved to START, you should see the resistance go from a high value to a very low value (ie, from over 2K ohm to under 10 ohm). if you don't see the 0 to 12VDC change, then you have either a bad ignition switch or the wiring between the ignition switch and the fuse box is bad (I have to assume that fuse F28 is good as you don't complain about any loss of power to other electrical devices in the car).

The next check you can do is install the jumper wire between terminals 3 and 5. Terminal 3 should have 12 VDC on it at all times. Terminal 5 is tied directly to the starter. If you can install a jumper wire between 3 and 5 and you don't get the starter to roll over, then I would say to connect a multimeter to terminal 5 to see what the voltage is there (should be 12 VDC). If you have 12 VDC there, then you have a bad wire between the fuse box and the starter. If you have 0VDC, then you have either a bad fuse at fuse F28 in the engine bay fuse box or the wiring between the fuse and the relay R10 is bad.

If you only have a test light, then we can do the same checks. When I reference 0 VDC, that will be light off. 12 VDC would be light on. In the case of Terminal 2, you will need to leave the relay installed and then have a small jumper wire or some other means to make electrical contact with terminal 2. In this case, when you roll the ignition switch to start, if the light goes out, then you have a low resistance. if the light remains on, you have a high resistance.

From your fuel pressure check, it sounds like the fuel pump is not your issue. That is a good pressure. That is a blessing and a curse all in the same statement. We have proven something good, but it still hasn't shown us the problem.

 

Now you speak of terminal 3 having 12VDC but it does not now. Terminal 5 has 12VDC while terminal 3 is showing a ground. I get a light on my test light when the clip is on the + terminal of the battery and I touch the tip to 3 Then when I put the clip on the -battery post an touch 5 it lights. When put the clip on 3 and probe 5 it lights. And nothing changes whether the key is on or not. No power is at 1 or 2 (and 4 is not connected to anything.) So as 5 is + and 3 is-, won't I blow a fuse if I connect 3 and 5?


The chime works when you put the key in the ignition and the overhead light comes on when you open the door. I have not checked anything else, But I will look at fuse 28 again anyway.


I do have a volt meter. I will need to pull it out tomorrow and learn how to use it. I bought it a couple of years ago and never took it out of the box so I guess it I about time I learn.


Bob

 

With relay 10 out, it I put the test light in #1 and turn the key to start, the light comes on. So the ignition switch is sending the signal.


Bob