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2011 XF Jaguar Supercharged (timing chair needed replacement)

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XF and XFR ( X250 ) 2007 - 2015

2011 XF Jaguar Supercharged (timing chair needed replacement)

 
  #1  
Old 02-10-2019, 09:18 PM
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Default 2011 XF Jaguar Supercharged (timing chair needed replacement)

we own a 2011 XF Supercharged
The timing chain needs to be replaced but between approximately $4000 in parts and 40 hours of labor ranging from $110 - $180 an hour would be about $9k to $12k to fix. We feel it is time to cut out losses and sell the vehicle.
We replaced the super charged last year for around $5k and the air compressor for $1800. We just canít justify another major repair on this car.
Any ideas of where we might start in finding what we could reasonably get for the car? We definitely donít want to do a dealer trade and are hoping for a individual who might want to take on the project.
We are in the Dallas, Tx metroplex.
 
  #2  
Old 02-11-2019, 08:29 PM
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Can a moderator move this thread to the X250 section as this question refers to the older XF model.

Do you have the 5.0 V8 SC? I think you are being quoted way too high...

It's a pretty common repair on the earlier jag and Land Rovers with the V8 as they get up in miles

One of the techs on here can correct me if I'm off, but I thought it is about $2500 in parts and I believe Jag pays 18 hours which is prob the same again. So I'd have thought it was a $5000 job. Perhaps less with a good Indy if you have one who has done it before
I can't believe it's $12,000 for a timing chain replacement. I think you're being ripped off
 
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:10 AM
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Yes it is the 5.0 V8 SC. This is what the dealer quoted us below. We searched some other shops that were really only coming in lower on the labor (like $110-$120) per hour as opposed to Jaguar's $180 per hour. That was keeping the estimate at still about 40 hours. The estimate on all the parts is around $4600 which others are saying would come in similar.

 
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:24 AM
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Yeah $4000 in parts is definitely a rip off, not to mention 40 hours (!) of labor. Is that from a dealer? I'd be hunting down an independent shop and getting a quote there.

HINT: Find somewhere that works on Range Rovers - this timing problem is well-known about within those circles and the engine is basically the same, requiring all the same tools for the job. Additionally, (as in a lot of cases) the parts required are considerably cheaper when ordered with Land Rover part numbers rather than the Jaguar ones, even though it's exactly the same part.

For example: You can buy the tensioners and the guides for $555 for new genuine LR parts on eBay. Then you'd just need new chains, which would either be 6.0 or 8.0mm pitch depending on year of manufacture.

I would never fit anything other than genuine LR/Jaguar parts to these engines so avoid other "deals" you may see on ebay, but with that above link plus new chains and other seals that might be needed on reassembly I reckon you'd see change from $1k - then it's just a case of finding an Independent place that will do the job for you.

There's quite a few members here in TX who might have some recommendations.
 
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:48 AM
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Thanks so much, Dave. We have asked some other trusted foreign repair shops and the labor is what ultimately is killing us. I don't know why 40 hours seems to be what they are not disagreeing on. It was a Jaguar/Range Rover dealer that quoted what I sent you. We never go to the dealer but our go to shop in the city didn't feel comfortable touching it. I really don't want to let go of this car. My husband has kept it in beautiful condition but this repair seems crazy to justify with what we are getting back on it. I appreciate the info.
 
  #6  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:55 AM
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OK so now I've seen the quote you posted I sort of retract my previous statement.... sort of.

The parts prices listed are expensive, and $424 per chain is frankly astonishing, although I can't find them much cheaper than $280 online - but there's a reason as to why this is, and I have a theory as to why the parts they've listed for you are so expensive.

There were two types of timing chain systems fitted to the 5.0 v8 engine - Tsubaki, with 6.35mm chain pitch, and INA, with 8.0mm chain pitch. It's important to note that with the different chain pitches, the only thing common between the two are the guides and the tensioners. Everything else - the chains, the VVT units, the sprocket on the end of the crank, the oil pump sprocket, and the auxiliary driveshaft sprocket (which can't be changed) are all the same drive pitch.

This means if your car had the Tsubaki system - which, going on the part numbers, it does - you have to fit Tsubaki parts to replace any that have failed. This means that with new chains, you need to fit Tsubaki chains, and my suspicion is that Jaguar has a limited number of these 6.35mm pitch chains (and VVTs) left in stock, and so they're priced accordingly. To illustrate my point, the 8.0mm chains go for around $50 each.

Where your quote gets interesting is that they're charging you for a crank sprocket, an oil pump sprocket, and an auxiliary driveshaft, coming in at an extra $1k. My suspicion here is that they are doing this because the 6.35mm pitch fuel/oil pump drive ("secondary drive") chains are no longer available, and they are now upgrading only the fuel and oil pump drive chain to 8.0mm to allow them to fit the later chain, but this of course requires replacement of the auxiliary driveshaft, the crank sprocket, and the oil pump sprocket to the later 8.0mm ones.

Whether it's fair for you as the customer to pay $1,000 as a result of their design changes and stock choices is not for me to argue, but I think it's a bit off. You could probably get away with not replacing the lower chain anyway.
 
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:44 AM
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I apologize for my ignorance, but these 5.0 V8 engines... aren't they basically Ford engines?
Can't we find replacement parts from Ford rather than Jaguar? Usually, actual Ford parts are fairly cheaper than Jaguar parts.
 

Last edited by mrNewt; 02-12-2019 at 01:43 PM.
  #8  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mrNewt View Post
I apologize for my ignorance, but these 5.0 V8 engines... aren't they basically Ford engines?
Can't we find replacement parts from Ford rather than Jaguar? Usually, actual Ford parts are fairly cheaper than Jaguar part".
No, they are not Ford engines, they are Jaguar designed and built engines using as many external bolt-on Ford parts as possible. Internal engine parts are less likely to be FoMoCo.
 
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Swimref View Post
No, they are not Ford engines, they are Jaguar designed and built engines using as many external bolt-on Ford parts as possible. Internal engine parts are less likely to be FoMoCo.
I know JLR started building their own engines around 2015 when they opened their new factory, but these old V8, from my own knowledge and reading some articles online, are at their core Ford engines, with probably some modifications added to them to meet Jaguar's needs (larger bore!?).
Even after TATA bought JLR, I know there was still a 10 year (or so) contract where the company will still rely on Ford to provide all their engines (until they started to do their own).

Again, I won't claim I actually know, but the general knowledge "out there" seems to be that these engines are actually in fact built by Ford, not JLR.
I will gladly stand corrected if I am mistaken.
 
  #10  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mrNewt View Post
Again, I won't claim I actually know, but the general knowledge "out there" seems to be that these engines are actually in fact built by Ford, not JLR.
I will gladly stand corrected if I am mistaken.
Sort of true, although there's a huge amount of confusion out there surrounding this. The 5.0 AJ133 engine was designed in-house at JLR, and is built at what is officially a Jaguar engine plant within the Ford engine factory in Bridgend, Wales. JLR took advantage of the Ford relationship to save themselves having to build a plant with all the associated costs, but it's a JLR designed engine and while some cast pieces on the engines are stamped "FoMoCo" this is purely down to this "engine building plant within a plant" setup and the sharing of facilities. It might technically be built within the confines of the Ford factory by Ford workers dedicated to building it, but that's the only link to Ford, it's an entirely new engine that shares no parts with any other Ford V8.

I know it seems like I'm splitting hairs and that some people on here get quite sensitive about people claiming it's a Ford engine, but this isn't due to some weird Jaguar protectionism or something, it's usually because every couple of weeks someone will reply to a thread about how "as it's just a Ford engine, can't you just fit Mustang performance parts to it?". It's not, and you can't, but this piece of misinformation just won't die. I don't know who started it but it's kind of annoying.
 

Last edited by davetibbs; 02-12-2019 at 10:30 AM.
  #11  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Swimref View Post
No, they are not Ford engines, they are Jaguar designed and built engines using as many external bolt-on Ford parts as possible.
Even this isn't quite accurate: none of the bolt-on parts are Ford and you won't find them on any Ford engines, beyond maybe pretty universal parts like the alternator and some sensors. You'll find a few parts with "FoMoCo" stamped on them but that just means the part was made in Ford-owned facilities, not that you'll find them dirt cheap as they're fitted to every F150 or something.

The best "hack" to get cheaper parts for this engine is to order parts using the Land Rover parts numbers (starting LRxxxxx). Sometimes the difference in cost for _exactly the same part_ ordered with a Jaguar or a Land Rover part number is striking. I saved thousands with my engine rebuild by checking LR prices first.
 

Last edited by davetibbs; 02-12-2019 at 11:12 AM.
  #12  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by davetibbs View Post
Sort of true, although there's a huge amount of confusion out there surrounding this. The 5.0 AJ133 engine was designed in-house at JLR, and is built at what is officially a Jaguar engine plant within the Ford engine factory in Bridgend, Wales. JLR took advantage of the Ford relationship to save themselves having to build a plant with all the associated costs, but it's a JLR designed engine and while some cast pieces on the engines are stamped "FoMoCo" this is purely down to this "engine building plant within a plant" setup and the sharing of facilities. It might technically be built within the confines of the Ford factory by Ford workers dedicated to building it, but that's the only link to Ford, it's an entirely new engine that shares no parts with any other Ford V8.

I know it seems like I'm splitting hairs and that some people on here get quite sensitive about people claiming it's a Ford engine, but this isn't due to some weird Jaguar protectionism or something, it's usually because every couple of weeks someone will reply to a thread about how "as it's just a Ford engine, can't you just fit Mustang performance parts to it?". It's not, and you can't, but this piece of misinformation just won't die. I don't know who started it but it's kind of annoying.
Thank you for the clarification!
I have read about the "plant inside plant" thing and my take away from that was that Ford guys and JLR guys worked together to create new engines - and I think some of them were used on Ford/Lincolns as well.

I apologize if I stepped on anyone's feelings, that was not my intention.
Personally I'm not a very brand agnostic person so ultimately I don't care as much about who made it, as long as I can find cheaper alternatives (if possible) .
 

Last edited by mrNewt; 02-12-2019 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mrNewt View Post
I apologize if I stepped on anyone's feelings, that was not my intention.
Personally I'm not a very brand agnostic person so ultimately I don't care as much who made it, as long as I can find cheaper alternatives (if possible) .
Absolutely no feelings hurt, let's be honest - these are only cars and engines we're talking about here, despite how much money and love they can cost when they go wrong 😝

I've just noticed that the whole "it's a Ford engine" thing has occasionally come across like a touchy subject but I think this is from people's exasperation at having to repeat the same message that you can't fit Ford parts (especially internally) to this engine, but it's obviously a wide-spread myth that a lot of people outside of the forum have heard (I've seen some quote Dealer techs saying it's the same as other Ford engines) and we have to remember not to jump down people's throats for it

I'm all about sharing information 😊
 
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:56 PM
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So back to the OP question. Has anyone on here actually done the timing chains? And if so what was the cost in parts and labor?
I struggle to see how it can be a 12,000 job to do that... That's more than many of the older cars are worth...
 
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BritCars View Post
So back to the OP question. Has anyone on here actually done the timing chains? And if so what was the cost in parts and labor?
Yes, as part of my engine rebuild. I made the decision to swap everything out for 8.0mm timing gear as the chains alone are so much cheaper - this meant buying new primary chain guides, tensioners, chains, 4x new VVTs (!), and a new auxilliary drive shaft, oil pump sprocket (I didn't need a new crank sprocket as the used crank I got came with one). I ordered using all LR parts, including scoring a few deals on eBay etc. Cost of parts was under $1k for all new parts, and my labor was free, but slow.

Obviously you can't source all the parts cheaply on eBay all the time, but even buying genuine LR parts online I think you could swap out all timing gear for new 8.0mm pitch stuff for under $2k in parts. You just need to find someone willing to do it for you if you can't, and I'm afraid I can't estimate labor hours it would take a pro to do this, I think Jag list about 15 hours but from memory that's only for the primary chains. If you want to change the secondary chain that drives the oil pump and the fuel pumps with the aux driveshaft etc, then that requires dropping the whole lower pan, and I have a feeling that means refitting a new rear crank seal, which would require torque converter and transmission removal if so. If it did, that could account for the labor cost.

EDIT: Just confirmed with the workshop manual - if you want to change the lower chain/fuel pump cam/oil pump gear that requires you to drop the whole oil pan (not just the extension with the drain plug on it) - this requires removal of the transmisison to remove/refit the rear crank oil seal. This is why the labor quote is so high as they're also doing that.
 

Last edited by davetibbs; 02-12-2019 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:53 PM
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A different angle... can you find these engines rebuilt?
And you basically do a swap?
 
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Old 02-12-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mrNewt View Post
A different angle... can you find these engines rebuilt?
And you basically do a swap?
In theory, yes. In practice, my suspicion is the vast majority of these engines you'll find rebuilt are Land Rover rather than Jaguar variants, which would necessitate an oil pan swap before refitting, but not really a major deal if the engine's being swapped anyway. As for why it's primarily Land Rovers that get rebuilt rather than Jaguars, I don't know, maybe there are more of them? All I know is I had far more success searching for parts to rebuild with (e.g. new bearings) by searching for Land Rovers rather than Jaguars.
 
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Old 02-12-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by davetibbs View Post
In theory, yes. In practice, my suspicion is the vast majority of these engines you'll find rebuilt are Land Rover rather than Jaguar variants, which would necessitate an oil pan swap before refitting, but not really a major deal if the engine's being swapped anyway. As for why it's primarily Land Rovers that get rebuilt rather than Jaguars, I don't know, maybe there are more of them? All I know is I had far more success searching for parts to rebuild with (e.g. new bearings) by searching for Land Rovers rather than Jaguars.
I think your suspicion might be correct - daily I see 4 to 10 Land-Rovers and maybe 1 to 5 weekly, I see a variant of Jaguar.

Swapping an oil pan is not a big deal... hell, I'll be even happy with a rebuilt bottom end only and swap that. In essence the engine is the same between these cars. A shop will always be much happier with a swap than an engine rebuild. That can be done in a day.

What would an engine like this go for... 4-5k!? Another 1k max for the swap!?
Again, numbers coming out of my rear-end based on previous experiences... not sure about actual prices on JLR cars .

(With the risk of committing some sacrilege, personally I would even entertain a Ford V8 swap if I could retro fit it).
 

Last edited by mrNewt; 02-13-2019 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mrNewt View Post
What would an engine like this go for... 4-5k!?
And the rest!

I've seen used (not rebuilt, no guarantee of history) engines go on eBay, but rarely under $12-13k for a supercharged engine.

A new short block from Jaguar runs around $10k plus taxes and delivery.
 
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by davetibbs View Post
And the rest!

I've seen used (not rebuilt, no guarantee of history) engines go on eBay, but rarely under $12-13k for a supercharged engine.

A new short block from Jaguar runs around $10k plus taxes and delivery.
Mother of... Talk about expectations meet reality...
Damn... I paid less for the entire car than on an engine.

Damn, I can actually make money parting the car out 😮
 

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