Hello, XJ 2016 SDV6 300hp here.
It seems that my EGRs are somewhat stuck open at 30% when ECU commands 0%.
When the ECU commands them to open lower than 30% they somewhat close.
When ECU commands 0% they hover around 30% but if I give it the beans they somewhat open.

This looks like broken return spring. But on both of them?

The side effects are:
- Start-stop most of the time doesn't work.
- DPF auto cleans down to 1mg but then quickly goes up to 6mg after 20 miles of driving.
- Excessive Soot in the intake. I changed map sensor and only 200 miles later it was almost covered up.
- slightly sluggish

I found new replacements for ~170 each (pierburg, same as OEM, you just keep the old cooler).

Is it easier/can it be done to remove and replace only the EGR part and leave the cooler installed - is there sufficient access to all screws needed or do I need to remove the whole thing?


Gave it the beans, both EGRs opened even more.


How hard of a job is it to replace and are there any instructions or videos to share?

Planning a 3K mile trip abroad soon and don't want any trouble.

Cheers!

Please check attached pictures.

 

EGR:s operate by electric motors not by springs on AJDV6 engine. It seems like yours are stuck or valves burn or gearing broke.
Not wise to use before fixed, because if EGR:s dont close, a lot os soot will go thru intake and thats never good.
There are few videos on youtube for removing EGR:s from AJDV6 engine and x351 Service and repair manual have instructions. It is tricky job. Not much space to work on.

 

But isn't it strange that they both "broke" exactly the same way?
Car has 66K miles.
Could it just be wrong calibration?
Is "air path calibration" in SDD also redoing the EGR calibration?

 

Or somebody have been it there for some reason and havent put everything back like should...
"Full vehicle reset" on SDD do the EGR calibration, if i remember right... (drive them 4-5 times back and forth to the ends - noise they made are surprisingly loud when engine noise is not covering it)
66k miles is not much and comparing mine still having originals at >200k miles sounds weird.

 

Hello,

Thank you for your reply. The engine is pretty clean and nobody has been on it, only oil changes every 5K miles and the stuck throttle body replaced. Everything is nice and clean and in place no wires and hoses have been messed with.

I just run the "air path setup" routine in SDD which calibrates the EGRs among other things and afterwards I connected my obd scanner and got the same result, bank 1 hovering around 33% when commanded 0%, Bank 2 hovering around 29% when commanded to 0%. If I bleep the throttle the "actual" position seems to move upwards with the engine revs.

I can see that the right side EGR motor is right there looking at me. Seems easy to remove, do you think if I remove the motor, i'll be able to tell if the EGR valve is damaged?
I am trying to avoid doing a big job and firing the parts canon without being 100% sure what the problem is. Of course I am not planning to fix the issue by just removing the motor.
If it was just 1 EGR, that would be a go for replacement immediately. The fact that it's both of them makes me very sceptical. In order for this to happen, I must have been so lucky that I got 2 EGR valves from a faulty batch. In that case, it's very likely that I've got a faulty EGR actuator motor since it's the only part that's exactly the same on both, (wishful thinking here!) or the EGR valves are toast.

PS, engine sound doesn't change at all during the EGR calibration which point towards the fact that either the actuator is free spinning or the valves inside the EGR are toast.

Shall I bother removing that EGR actuator motor for inspection? looks like it's just 4 screws. What would you do in my position ?

 

It sound for me too that the motors are not connected to the valves at all. If i remember right there are sleeve/arm connection betveen motor and axle of the valve. (sorry, english term just not pop in my mind) Maybe that connection have been jumped out and valve is free? Cant see how it could, but if history of the vehicle is unknown everything is possible - Maybe somebody have peeked there and not been able to assemble them back correctly? You don´t lose anything if you take motor up and check the situtation.

Edit: By removing the motor you dont see the actual valve, but operating arm of the valve.

 

cheers, I'll take the easy one apart and see if I can find anything. I am worried that removing the motor won't be possible with the EGR on the engine, in case you need to eg, rotate the valve to disengage the sleeve that's connected with the motor. I guess we'll see!

If anyone has taken it apart and thinks it's a bad idea doing it on the car without removing the rest of the EGR from the engine please speak now!!!

 

The 3.0D EGR:s are quite bulletproof so it seems like there are not much videos dismantle of them, but i found one where you can see the motor/arm connection a bit:

I never removed one from vehicle, but been once had one (from crashed Range) on my desk and peeked in for the condition. (long time ago)

 

Hello, thank you for the video. I have news.

I was using the "car scanner" app because the SDD live datalogger never worked for me. But today I installed the latest SDD v167 and live data logger worked. So I checked EGR actual position and commanded position and it looks like they match.

So I was probably misguided by the "car scanner" app that doesn't translate this measurement correctly.

That explains why I don't have a DTC as well.

But now I am back to a dead end.

If EGRs work correctly - and I trust SDD live data more than "car scanner" app - then why do I have excessive soot in the intake and DPF going from 2mg to 10mg in only 40 miles of steady 50mph driving?

I have checked:
- no boost pipe leak
- no intake leak
- no vacuum leak
- oil changes every 5K miles (initially Castrol c1, now motul c1)
- BP/Shell fuel only (standard though)
- map sensor is new, original (made in Japan by Hitachi)
- fuel filter new
- air filter new
- throttle body new

Clue: I have never seen a big differential pressure in DPF, it's always 0 when idle 1 or 2 when cruising and might go up to 5-10 when heavy throttle.

Even when calculated soot is 8 to 10mg, I don't see high differential pressure, is this normal?

Any ideas what else to look for?

 

Good that you found scanner issue out. Another good reason to use correct tool in diagnosting.

Hmmm.. Soot to the intake can only come from EGR:s. EGS:s are openend only when running on light load so generation of soot should be low if burning process/mixture is correct. You have low mileage, but it dosent count the possibility that something has failed. Injectors: If one or some don´t atomize the fuel correctly the burning is not good. You can try some fuel addon. (i use Lucas upper cylinder lubricant twice a year in tree full tank in a row)

You can try to swap MAF:s. They are identícal. Top one is for 2nd turbo, far less used than lover one what is for primary turbo.
If you clean them: Use ONLY cleaner spray mentioned for MAF:s. Not brake cleaner etc.. Dont touch or try to rub internals.

Check the throtle body air flap that it dosent stick, even its new.

Then there are possibility that one of your EGR is leaking and don´t hold exhaust when it should. This will mess the mixture causing more soot. The small leak might not lit the MIL light because there are toleranses for the measured air input.

Timing: Yours haven´t reached the timing belt change intervall yet by age or miles, but it might been worth to peek condition of the belt and cam sprokets. If the timing have been jumped one tooth or cam sproket timing adjustment bolts have been failed/sliding this could cause poor burning. Also the high pressure fuel pump need to be timed on 3.0D engine.

Also double check that the fuel lines are in correct order on fiel filter. If the "Return to fuel tank" line is in wrong or its blocked this will cause rich mixture.

 

Hello,

I ordered the injector cleaner, we'll see how it goes.

Not sure how to check EGR leak. ECU commands them slightly open on idle and about 2% when going full send.

I'll try the MAF swap, sounds easy.

Throttle body flap is okay I believe.

Timing was done about 8K miles ago along with fuel filter but not the pump belt.

Do you know what is the normal fuel pressure on idle? I think I can read it from SDD.

Unfortunately there is no longer term/short term fuel trim info either on SDD or OBD, that would be a tell tale sign of they were maxed out.

Somehow, the car can tell there's excessive soot and marks the DPF filling fast and it's not differential pressure.

There must be something I can measure in the ECU data.

Sometimes I feel the motor moving the car for sideways like a misfire for one or two strokes, especially when it's preparing for DPF regen.

 

Ok. I think only way to check EGR valve is to open tem and check with some fluid that the valve is not leaking.
Are you sure ECU commands 2% on full send or is it so that the position show 2% ? (ECU should keep EGR:s closed on any other mode than "lean mode" -> On modern engines EGR purpose is to past exhaust gasses to the combustion chamber for replacing exxess oxyden so its possible to go "extra lean" mixture without burning valves/piston. Adding this the EGR:s are also opened when DPF burning process is started and same time the EGR coolers are bypassed. The reason for this are that by this the temperature of exhaust gasses are rapidly rised for Cat ignition)

On same go when you swap MAF:s peek the throtle body valve. You only need to open main air input hose on top middle and you can move flap by finger easyly. If its sticking on closed position even a bit, sand it slighly until it moves freely. I heard that this is somehow quite common in UK, but not much reported in mainland EU or Scandinavia. (Dont know why. I would not believe that it could be caused by salty air?)

Sorry: I don´t know what is the normal fuel pressures.
In fact the info dosent matter: When searching an issue an proper way is not to read what diag system show and think all is good when reading is correct.
Proper way is to measure pressure/value by external meter and compare reading for diag system reading. If the external meter show that the pressure on fuel rail is 2000 Bar and Diag system shows 10 000 Bar, you know that the pressure sensor have failed. (pressure is adjusted by the sensor output and engine running far too low pressure with system thinking that all is well, because faulty sensor sending wrong info)

Hmmm.. On my mind if the fuel trims hit floor/ceiling that will lit MIL on dash. It might be that if you have performed vehicle reset it will take to miles to counters start showing some data?

Btw: The DFP filling mg is always only calculated data not an actual measurement. Differential pressure is only proper measured data what is available from DPF, but it start to rise only when it have quite much stuff inside and this means many burnings have not been completed.

Yes: On diesel the misfiring is really felt because of high compression. As Diesel working principal is quite simple: Air/fuel mixture is combusted by pressure alone only two things is to worry: Amount of Air / Amount of fuel. (assuming that the compression is Ok)
Amount of air have few variables: Filtering / measuring / leaks (EGR function is in leaks category)
Amount of Fuel have also some variables: Fuel pressure / quality of spray / amount of Spray
Any diesel workshop can check and measure the injectors and even repair them. -> If your situtation get better with injector cleaner, but not go complete away, i recommend to remove injectors and drop them to the diesel workshop for checking. (Note: Mark them. They shall NOT be mixed!!)
Typically if you bring in 6 injectors and they run them in the tester it will cost something between 50€-100€ per set to get them tested. If you have one or two needed service its about 90-150€ / injector to open and replace internals plus run the values of it. You will then need to add new values of that injector by SDD to the ECU or run injector calibration by SDD. (not sure if calibration exists in SDD, because some ECU:s only work with factory values. Never need to do calibration on AJDV6/DT20 engine. For 2.2D inline 4 i have done calibration runs many times. (Ford/PSA applications, but same engine used by JLR)
Each injector have different values about coil resistance and amount of Amp needed for opening the valve. These values needed to be told for ECU because of high presission needed for up to 7 layers of spray on each combustion cycle.

 

SDD says ECU commanded 22% on idle, and 2% on throttle bleeping while in park.
EGRS follow this very closely.

Thanks, I replaced this flap because it was sticking, along with the MAP sensor. It is not sticking now, but I will do the MAF swap soon.


This sounds difficult to test, i'll leave it for last!

I haven't reset the vehicle, perhaps I should! But i've seen cars hovering at +15 long term 0 short term and that was indication of evap system leak really. It wasn't maxing it out so no MIL but it still worked like crap. After evap system fix car went back to +-5 long term trim and everything was fine after. Unfortunately, no fuel trim info on this car, it's also an indication of bad injector, if bank 1 is +12 and bank 2 is -3 there's a good chance that there's something wrong on one injector on bank 1.

So the car sees some measurement and says "oh that's producing a lot of soot, let me increase the calculated soot quickly". I wonder what that is that it sees to come into that conclusion!

I really hope Lucas injector cleaner makes a difference, I am running out of patience here, almost thinking of selling the darn thing before it destroys itself.


Yeah I know about injector codes, i've learn the hard way! on an other car. Then had to play injector bingo until I get it right!!

Do you think measuring the injector fuel return difference between injectors will be a good indication before bothering to remove ?

Thank you again for the useful info, the plan is to check this sequence:
1) add 200ml of Lucas injector cleaning fluid on 1/4 tank, drive 10 miles to petrol station and fill it up with expensive diesel, then drive 300 miles
if not fixed
2) reset car
if not fixed
3) swap MAF (and recheck in case new flap is sticky again)
if not fixed
4) measure fuel pressure - check fuel pump timing (and replace fuel pump belt since i'm there)
if not fixed
5) get injectors cleaned
if not fixed
6) sell the darn thing and buy a Toyota.

 

Ahh.. Ok. On park there are no "proper" power output request so the system dont nessesary go on the power mode. You might try holding against brake. It should give some power, but ot much. (XJ don´t let you rip your tyres and rear pads against brake) Or you can set SDD record EGR value and go for a spin. (i think.. never tested)

For fuel pressure test you have to have good and solid pressure meter and protection against possible leaks. The system pressure is very high, capable to cutting flesh from fingers, so you might want to take it on the Diesel workshop for pressure test than do it yourself. I have done pressure tests for old mechanical and very first common rail diesels, these were scary enough, but not "modern" ones (above year.2000)

The fuel trims points an issue with injector on my mind too.

I think the system use injector opening times and O2 / CAT temp sensors for calculations? (or magic) Never studied it deeply. Same way it calculates how much is burned off by each burning cycle.
Even if DPF is removed totally from the vehicle this value change.

On SDD there are function "Full vehicle reset". Even it say Full, its not complete full, but more than removing battery. It will sent system reset command for all CAN nodes, but don´t exsample delete the air circulation flap charts or transmission learning, either of ECU fuel chart learnings etc. I think the full vehicle reset is performed everytime if you clear the MIL codes. It cant do any harm.

Played same Bingo few times as well before learned to use solid cabletie method for marking.

Yes, defently. If you got lot of return fuel its bad. Also very low return is not good.
Note: Even all can look good on return fuel test and volume of returns are even, some injectors might still have bad atomising spray pattern. (droplets are the worst source of soot) If you have an return fuel measure kit you can do the test yourself, but if you plan to purchase the kit, check first from your local diesel shop how much they ask for the test. (it can be less than the kit)

(6) If you want to avoid issues, don´t go for Toyota diesels. You havent seen nothing yet.
If you like to stay JLR and diesel, go to pre 2016 (before ingenium family) 2.2D exsample XF.
Change oil in every 10t miles and you run the engine easy >500t miles.

 

If you're already dealing with EGR issues and excessive soot buildup, some people consider an EGR delete as a long-term solution. A full diesel delete kit (EGR + DPF + DEF delete) can help reduce carbon buildup and improve reliability, but it depends on local emissions laws and your goals. Have you considered this option?

 

Bit warning on this: EGR main purpose is to replace exxess oxygen when engine is in "lean mix" mode to keep combustion chamber and pistons from overheating. EGR:s should be only open when engine are in lean mode, so when everything is in order the soot accumulation is very low on intake.
If EGR:s are deleted the fuel mapping have to be modded as well to prevent engine going on "lean mode".
The obious risk are burned valves, oil cooking under pistons and later clocked oil pickup and even melted pistons.

I have 325 000km (>200 000miles) on my 3.0D and there are only thin layer of soot on intake.