Cold start problem aj16 x300 3.2 - RESOLVED!
#1
Cold start problem aj16 x300 3.2 - RESOLVED!
Hello again,
my “new” 96 x300 3.2 has a cold start problem, after some experiments i know can start it right away if i turn the ignition 4 times and then start it! It seems there is no fuel on the engine after some hours parked. Once it starts it will start again right away.
In your experience what can this be? Fuel pump?
thanks
my “new” 96 x300 3.2 has a cold start problem, after some experiments i know can start it right away if i turn the ignition 4 times and then start it! It seems there is no fuel on the engine after some hours parked. Once it starts it will start again right away.
In your experience what can this be? Fuel pump?
thanks
#2
There is a check valve on the fuel pump itself that traps initial starting fuel charge for days , by cycling the key you are overcoming this
in the normal starting sequence once the key is in the on position the fuel pump will turn on for 4 seconds then turn off by design for a refresh fuel charge in the line
without replacing the pump some have put a new external to the tank check valve of a certain size unknown to me
Your experimenting and definition of the problem has led to your solution
in the normal starting sequence once the key is in the on position the fuel pump will turn on for 4 seconds then turn off by design for a refresh fuel charge in the line
without replacing the pump some have put a new external to the tank check valve of a certain size unknown to me
Your experimenting and definition of the problem has led to your solution
Last edited by Lady Penelope; 01-24-2019 at 06:33 AM.
The following 2 users liked this post by Lady Penelope:
Don B (01-24-2019),
Paulofvfreitas (01-24-2019)
#3
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Crossroads of America
Posts: 19,392
Received 12,737 Likes
on
6,379 Posts
Hello again,
my “new” 96 x300 3.2 has a cold start problem, after some experiments i know can start it right away if i turn the ignition 4 times and then start it! It seems there is no fuel on the engine after some hours parked. Once it starts it will start again right away.
In your experience what can this be? Fuel pump?
my “new” 96 x300 3.2 has a cold start problem, after some experiments i know can start it right away if i turn the ignition 4 times and then start it! It seems there is no fuel on the engine after some hours parked. Once it starts it will start again right away.
In your experience what can this be? Fuel pump?
Hi Paulofvfreitas,
Two common contributors to the symptoms you describe are the Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR), and the fuel check valve Lady P mentioned, which, if I recall correctly, on the X300 is built into the outlet of the fuel pump. These components work together to maintain pressurized fuel in the fuel line between the pump and the fuel rail. If one or both lose their ability to maintain pressure, whenever the fuel pump is shut off the pressure dissipates more quickly than it should - often nearly immediately. You can test the fuel pressure with a test gauge and watch to see how long pressure is maintained after the engine is shut off. You can also perform a basic check on the FPR by disconnecting the vacuum hose from the FPR and inspecting for signs of wet fuel at the vacuum hose fitting. If you don't see any, crank the engine briefly then check again. Wet fuel at the vacuum hose fitting indicates failure of the diaphragm in the FPR.
As Lady P mentioned, you can add an inexpensive check valve anywhere in a flexible section of the fuel line between the pump and rail. If I recall correctly, the flexible fuel line I.D. is 8 mm, so a check valve with 5/16 inch hose barbs will fit. Be sure to purchase a check valve with fluoroelastomer seals that are designed for use with gasoline. McMaster-Carr carries some nice brass-bodied ones with low opening pressures (1 psi), along with the hose barbs you need to fit your fuel lines. I have photos in the albums at the link in my signature, but I think the large images may still be down.
Cheers,
Don
Last edited by Don B; 01-24-2019 at 07:38 PM.
The following 3 users liked this post by Don B:
#4
Hello and thanks a lot to both of you DON B and LADY P ! If you ever come to portugal give me a call and you will be received in a x300 at the Lisbon airport!
i will follow your tips and start with the basics, try the FPR and replace if necessary, if it still keeps with the syptoms i will place a check valve and your instructions in that mega hiper great website!
I cannot thank you guys enough
i will follow your tips and start with the basics, try the FPR and replace if necessary, if it still keeps with the syptoms i will place a check valve and your instructions in that mega hiper great website!
I cannot thank you guys enough
The following users liked this post:
Don B (01-25-2019)
#5
#6
The following 3 users liked this post by Robman25:
#7
Have you been driving like that for some time now? No probls?
thanks a lot for your help as well
Trending Topics
#8
Don B's suggestion of being just after the tank prevents air from gurgling back into that long line which necessitates a couple of fuel charging cycles to rectify for a successful engine start
But I have seen white check valve in the engine compartment of late year X300s
But I have seen white check valve in the engine compartment of late year X300s
Last edited by Lady Penelope; 01-26-2019 at 09:06 PM.
#9
If your issue is the check valve that is part of the pump assembly then you will need to put your additional check valve as near to the original as possible as @Lady P and @Don B suggested. Putting a valve on the return line would not stop fuel trickling back in to the tank through the pump so your problem would be the same.
If it was the FPR that was not sealing off pressure then putting a check valve on the return line would work. But it would be better to replace the FPR as it's easy to do and relatively cheap.
If it was the FPR that was not sealing off pressure then putting a check valve on the return line would work. But it would be better to replace the FPR as it's easy to do and relatively cheap.
#10
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Crossroads of America
Posts: 19,392
Received 12,737 Likes
on
6,379 Posts
Cheers,
Don
#11
Hi Don
No I didn't mean to imply that.
I may have misunderstood how the fuel lines work. This is what I think.
There is a check valve on the fuel feed at the pump. When the engine is not running (i.e. no vacuum) the FPR closes and acts like a check valve preventing fuel in the rail returning to the tank. So we have the pump check valve at the feed end, the FPR at the return end and all injectors off so the pressure in the line is maintained. Is that not how it works?
So what I meant in my previous post was that if the FPR was not fully closing when the engine was stopped and hence leaking pressure, then putting a check valve on the return line would fix that only. It would still require the FPR to be doing it's job when the engine is running.
No I didn't mean to imply that.
I may have misunderstood how the fuel lines work. This is what I think.
There is a check valve on the fuel feed at the pump. When the engine is not running (i.e. no vacuum) the FPR closes and acts like a check valve preventing fuel in the rail returning to the tank. So we have the pump check valve at the feed end, the FPR at the return end and all injectors off so the pressure in the line is maintained. Is that not how it works?
So what I meant in my previous post was that if the FPR was not fully closing when the engine was stopped and hence leaking pressure, then putting a check valve on the return line would fix that only. It would still require the FPR to be doing it's job when the engine is running.
#12
#13
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Crossroads of America
Posts: 19,392
Received 12,737 Likes
on
6,379 Posts
No I didn't mean to imply that.
I may have misunderstood how the fuel lines work. This is what I think.
There is a check valve on the fuel feed at the pump. When the engine is not running (i.e. no vacuum) the FPR closes and acts like a check valve preventing fuel in the rail returning to the tank. So we have the pump check valve at the feed end, the FPR at the return end and all injectors off so the pressure in the line is maintained. Is that not how it works?
So what I meant in my previous post was that if the FPR was not fully closing when the engine was stopped and hence leaking pressure, then putting a check valve on the return line would fix that only. It would still require the FPR to be doing it's job when the engine is running.
I may have misunderstood how the fuel lines work. This is what I think.
There is a check valve on the fuel feed at the pump. When the engine is not running (i.e. no vacuum) the FPR closes and acts like a check valve preventing fuel in the rail returning to the tank. So we have the pump check valve at the feed end, the FPR at the return end and all injectors off so the pressure in the line is maintained. Is that not how it works?
So what I meant in my previous post was that if the FPR was not fully closing when the engine was stopped and hence leaking pressure, then putting a check valve on the return line would fix that only. It would still require the FPR to be doing it's job when the engine is running.
This is a great discussion so I thought it would be worth adding some info from the Jagaur documentation. The FPR never "fully closes," even when the engine is shut off. The diaphragm spring is calibrated at the factory at atmospheric pressure to release pressures above 44 psi/3.0 bar, so even when the engine is shut off, excess fuel pressure can be relieved. With the engine running, vacuum from the intake manifold references the regulator to manifold absolute pressure and "assists" the fuel in lifting the FPR diaphragm to reduce strain on the fuel pump. I guess it's similar in principle to a vacuum-operated power assist brake servo. Here's the explanation from the XJ40 Engine Management System manual (the X300 uses the same FPR):
There are at least two check valves (non-return valves or "one-way" valves) in the system. One at the fuel pump outlet, and one at the fuel tank inlet. The one at the pump outlet works with the FPR to maintain correct pressure in the fuel feed line between the pump and fuel rail. The one at the inlet to the fuel tank prevents fuel back-drain and directs returned fuel into the surge pot to keep the fuel pump primed, even under low-fuel conditions. Here's some info from the X300 Technical Introduction Manual:
Note that both check valves work in the same direction, viewing the path of the fuel as a circuit or loop. The valve at the pump allows fuel to travel toward the fuel rail but prevents it from re-entering the tank. The valve at the inlet of the fuel tank allows fuel into the tank, but prevents it from draining back into the line, either from gravity or positive pressure in the tank. If the tank inlet check valve was oriented the opposite direction, as a backup to the FPR, no fuel could flow in the system, since the check valve resistance to reverse flow is many times the system maximum pressure. Check valves open at very low pressures, typically just 1 psi or so, to offer as little resistance as possible to the fuel pump. But the maximum reverse pressure resistance is very high, typically 2,000 to 3,000 psi.
Cheers,
Don
Last edited by Don B; 01-29-2019 at 02:22 PM.
#15
Hello guys
so update, went for the first reconnaissance
- change spark plugs, old ones had some years and miles into it (could see by the discolouration on the body) but all were burning well (a bit lean).
- one ignition coil was broken and already had tape, so just ordered a new lucas one (this might be the reason for a shake/judder at idle.
- changed the FPR but no improvement, also checked the old one and seem fine.
so i guess the problem must be the check valves on the fuel tank pump, well after checking the diy on those (specially near the fuel tank) i guess that between changing the fuel pump and putting a check valve the difficulty of the job will be the same, what do you think?
i have been checking fuel pumps and there are some 40/50 quid ones but also found this walbro https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F172825765894
on neither can i see the check valves (inlet) are they inside the fuel pump body?
also i am thinking on changing the outlet non return valve showing on Don B’s diagram , before changig rhe pump.Does anyone knows the part number?
so update, went for the first reconnaissance
- change spark plugs, old ones had some years and miles into it (could see by the discolouration on the body) but all were burning well (a bit lean).
- one ignition coil was broken and already had tape, so just ordered a new lucas one (this might be the reason for a shake/judder at idle.
- changed the FPR but no improvement, also checked the old one and seem fine.
so i guess the problem must be the check valves on the fuel tank pump, well after checking the diy on those (specially near the fuel tank) i guess that between changing the fuel pump and putting a check valve the difficulty of the job will be the same, what do you think?
i have been checking fuel pumps and there are some 40/50 quid ones but also found this walbro https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F172825765894
on neither can i see the check valves (inlet) are they inside the fuel pump body?
also i am thinking on changing the outlet non return valve showing on Don B’s diagram , before changig rhe pump.Does anyone knows the part number?
Last edited by Paulofvfreitas; 02-03-2019 at 12:56 PM.
#16
The non return valve may not be present on the 2 different systems on the fuel tank / lines / EVAP for the X300 production years
See page 60
http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Trai...20-%202000.pdf
The way you can tell is the single square vapor canister on the left side only or the dual with one on the left and right just fwd of the rear wheels
See page 60
http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Trai...20-%202000.pdf
The way you can tell is the single square vapor canister on the left side only or the dual with one on the left and right just fwd of the rear wheels
Last edited by Lady Penelope; 02-03-2019 at 06:12 PM.
#17
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Crossroads of America
Posts: 19,392
Received 12,737 Likes
on
6,379 Posts
so i guess the problem must be the check valves on the fuel tank pump, well after checking the diy on those (specially near the fuel tank) i guess that between changing the fuel pump and putting a check valve the difficulty of the job will be the same, what do you think?
i have been checking fuel pumps and there are some 40/50 quid ones but also found this walbro https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F172825765894
i have been checking fuel pumps and there are some 40/50 quid ones but also found this walbro https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F172825765894
Hi Paul,
The fuel pump check valve is built in to its outlet per the documentation I posted earlier. On the X300s on which I've changed fuel pumps, the original pumps were made by Denso. Walbro was the OEM for the earlier XJ40 and XJ-S cars, but I don't believe those pumps have a built-in check valve, since on those earlier cars there were check valves either in the outlets of the plastic pump canisters/modules, the evaporative flange on top of the tank, or in the fuel feed line just ahead of the fuel filter. You might do some research on that Walbro pump you identified to see if you can confirm that it has a built-in check valve, but personally I wouldn't replace the pump just yet.
Probably the easiest next step for you to try is to add a new inline check valve somewhere in a flexible section of the fuel feed line somewhere between the pump and the fuel rail. Ideally the check valve would be as close to the tank/pump as possible, but I've experimented with a check valve close to the fuel rail and it performed nearly as well as the near-tank location.
I have photos and descriptions in the albums at the link in my signature, but the large images are still down and only the thumbnails are currently available.
McMaster-Carr (mcmaster.com) carries inexpensive check valves with fluoroelastomer seals suitable for gasoline. Off the top of my head, I think I used a 1/4 inch I.D. check valve with 5/16 inch O.D. hose barbs to fit the 8 mm I.D. of the flexible fuel line.
Cheers,
Don
Last edited by Don B; 02-03-2019 at 07:23 PM.
The following users liked this post:
93SB (02-09-2019)
#18
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Crossroads of America
Posts: 19,392
Received 12,737 Likes
on
6,379 Posts
Just to clarify, what you need is a check valve between the fuel pump and fuel rail, not between the FPR and fuel tank. Before you install the check valve, confirm its proper orientation so that it allows fuel to travel from the pump to the rail but not from the rail to the pump. The valves I've purchased from McMaster-Carr are marked with an arrow indicating the direction of flow.
Cheers,
Don
The following users liked this post:
93SB (02-09-2019)
#19