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Thanks all. I'll be tearing into it again tomorrow to see what I can find out. And looking over what has been posted here. I'll report back when I know something.
Back again. It's been a busy time. I began going through the wiring looking for a bad open or a short in the harness. After some time I remembered that I have a couple old O-scopes in the garage and set to finding/cleaning and testing them to use for this issue. I made a couple harnesses that could be used to monitor the signal from the ECM to the coils.
I could not get the scope to trigger nicely on the signals, so they drift a bit, but I think they look very similar, and that it shows cylinder 6 wiring seems as good as cylinder 2 and the plug/coil "should" be firing. With that I moved my attention to the injectors. I remembered that the #6 plug was very clean compared to all the rest after 6 months of running (pictured above, second set of 3, plug on the right) and wondered if maybe cylinder 6 was running leaner due to buildup and then just suddenly clogged on us. We bit the bullet and pulled the injectors out (never worked on injectors before). They were all dirty, and sure enough #6 was clogged up (next pic).
We also found that the fuel rail was full of garbage and started to flush it out with carb cleaner (next pic). It was so bad we ran out of carb cleaner trying to clean it out. A neighbor suggested I bring it to a radiator repair shop (one down the road) and have them put it through a bath that they use to clean old radiators, which I may do. The pic below was after several flushes and it was still coming out.
We spent some time flushing the injectors out with carb cleaner (9V battery to trigger the valves open). I've ordered an O-ring and filter set for the injectors. We'll try to spiff them up the best we can before re installing them. I've ordered a new fuel filter for it, but from what I've seen online and looking at our old one, I'm not sure I should try and replace it. It looks rusted solid. I'm afraid I'll break the remaining fuel line (also rusted). I'm wondering if we can just install a second filter upstream from the factory filer??? The fuel line should probably be replaced though. More $$$.
I don't know if the original problem was actually a clogged injector. The scope signals hint that there may be spark, but we don't know that for sure. We've just got our fingers crossed. If this does fix the issue I'll have to go back then and maybe replace all the injectors and investigate the TPS tips Lady P added above. The car has always run very rich. Any hints and/or tips on installing the injectors and/or fuel filter would be very welcome.
Thanks All!
Bobby
Last edited by BobbyDing; Mar 10, 2019 at 09:19 PM.
I’d have the injectors professionally cleaned at this point. They’ll be able to tell you if any other injector may be struggling. I’ve used Jaguar Fuel Injector Service in the past.
I’d also replace the fuel rail. It’s not an expensive part and it was used for all AJ6/AJ16 engines, so it should be rather easy to find. I’d start at everydayxj.com. He’s usually got good prices.
The fuel filter is rather straightforward. Take off the drivers side wheel and then take the cover in the back right hand corner. People will tell you to pull the fuel pump fuse and start the car, clearing the pressure in the fuel lines. I’ve knocked on the inertia switch by the passengers side door hinge with the same result. Just make sure you start the engine to use up the fuel already in the lines.
EDIT: I now noticed that the fuel filter and fittings seem rusted. I’d spray some penetrating oil and give it a go. If the lines are so rusted that they will break, than they are probably too far gone to be treated with another filter. Adding a second filter would essentially be the same amount of work to cut the old filter out and replace the fittings anyways. I’m worried that all that crap is coming from this rusty assembly anyways, so it’s gonna need attention anyways. I’m hoping it’s from a 25+ year old fuel filter....
Sounds like you found the source of the problem.
tip: Be careful with those clips on the injectors. They break easier than you think. Take all the injectors off before you place an order for the fuel rail. You may be needing some replacement clips if any break. I’d make sure you had at least one spare for the future....
I’d have the injectors professionally cleaned at this point. They’ll be able to tell you if any other injector may be struggling. I’ve used Jaguar Fuel Injector Service in the past.
I’d also replace the fuel rail. It’s not an expensive part and it was used for all AJ6/AJ16 engines, so it should be rather easy to find. I’d start at everydayxj.com. He’s usually got good prices.
The fuel filter is rather straightforward. Take off the drivers side wheel and then take the cover in the back right hand corner. People will tell you to pull the fuel pump fuse and start the car, clearing the pressure in the fuel lines. I’ve knocked on the inertia switch by the passengers side door hinge with the same result. Just make sure you start the engine to use up the fuel already in the lines.
EDIT: I now noticed that the fuel filter and fittings seem rusted. I’d spray some penetrating oil and give it a go. If the lines are so rusted that they will break, than they are probably too far gone to be treated with another filter. Adding a second filter would essentially be the same amount of work to cut the old filter out and replace the fittings anyways. I’m worried that all that crap is coming from this rusty assembly anyways, so it’s gonna need attention anyways. I’m hoping it’s from a 25+ year old fuel filter....
Sounds like you found the source of the problem.
tip: Be careful with those clips on the injectors. They break easier than you think. Take all the injectors off before you place an order for the fuel rail. You may be needing some replacement clips if any break. I’d make sure you had at least one spare for the future....
Thanks Vee. Sorry so long in responding. Several minor emergencies here to be dealt with first. I have ordered a replacement fuel rail from everydayxj. Since I'm not sure if this is truly the fix for the error codes above (got to watch the $$$) I'm taking a stab at cleaning up and testing the injectors myself. I just received the new O-rings and filters. If they don't work out then I'll be contacting the Jaguar Injector Service you linked to. They seem pretty reasonable price wise. There was an awful amount of rust in and around the rail and injectors. Is there a typical reason for water getting into the Jag fuel system? Or is this typical of any 20 year old car? Would this be coming from the fuel tank?
Could be the car setting in the cold with a near empty fuel tank , The car doesn' t start for what ever reason but draws a slug of condensated water into the fuel rail , sits there and rust over a period of unuse
A second inline fuel filter will do nothing for you with a first clogged filter . Seen pictures of the guck inside the tank of a sitting for time X300
There is not much turning arc in the fuel fittings up in the area behind the wheel
A tubing wrench with a second open end is what I recommend and the size is either 5/8 or 11/16 off the top of my head
If you break a injector connector the number I came up with is a EV - 1 series same as used on the trunk dome lights , borrowing option , I could be wrong
Last edited by Lady Penelope; Mar 12, 2019 at 09:39 PM.
Sorry the large images at Jag-Lovers have still not been transferred over to the new servers. I'm going to help with that effort if I can find the time.
Thank you Don B. for the great info on cleaning the injectors. One question... What is the polarity of the pins on the injector? Does it matter which pin gets the positive voltage? And thanks Lady P, I'll check the dome light connectors when I get home.
Thank you Don B. for the great info on cleaning the injectors. One question... What is the polarity of the pins on the injector? Does it matter which pin gets the positive voltage? And thanks Lady P, I'll check the dome light connectors when I get home.
Hi Bobby,
I don't think the polarity of the current applied to the injector coil matters, but if you want to be safe, check the fuel injector connectors in your car. The side with the Black wire with Light Green tracer line is the positive, the other wire is the ground (the ground wires are black but the tracer line color is different for each injector).
P.S. Please use your User Control Panel to edit your signature to add the year, model and engine details of your Jag so we don't have to scroll all the way back to your first post to be reminded.
Thanks Don, is there any method for re installing the injectors? Like lubricating the O-rings for a better seal with something? Or are they installed dry? Hoping to get this done this weekend.
There is a specific thing called fuel lube so as you insert the injectors you don't pinch . roll , or tear the o - rings
inspect the rings with a magnifying glass and good light before even installing and the first step of putting them on the injectors
look for tears and rolls again
Important not to put in dry as the consequences of a hidden and high up fuel leak on top of the engine
For a leak test Vee suggested using foot talcum powder to see the area if the powder gets wet
In a pinch a small tube of vaseline jelly may work as assembly lube , navel jelly is a different thing and may harm the o - rings
The receiving ports on the head may need to be cleaned abrasively becouse there may have been water sitting on there , rusting over time and could cause damage to the o -ring during installation . Same on the fuel rail receivers
worth the time to ensure smooth
I found there is going to be one stubborn port to get to receive the injector and may need to walk the rail into position from one end or the other
Good time to clean up the fuel rail with a wire brush or scotch bright and paint the color of choise
You can flush into and let sit for a while a rust dissolver solution because the rust is still sitting in there
The bracket filters on the injectors can be removed by cranking in a wood screw after filing off the tip , careful not to blow out the plastic injector
Last edited by Lady Penelope; Mar 14, 2019 at 12:49 PM.
There is a specific thing called fuel lube so as you insert the injectors you don't pinch . roll , or tear the o - rings
inspect the rings with a magnifying glass and good light before even installing and the first step of putting them on the injectors
look for tears and rolls again
Important not to put in dry as the consequences of a hidden and high up fuel leak on top of the engine
For a leak test Vee suggested using foot talcum powder to see the area if the powder gets wet
In a pinch a small tube of vaseline jelly may work as assembly lube , navel jelly is a different thing and may harm the o - rings
The receiving ports on the head may need to be cleaned abrasively becouse there may have been water sitting on there , rusting over time and could cause damage to the o -ring during installation . Same on the fuel rail receivers
worth the time to ensure smooth
I found there is going to be one stubborn port to get to receive the injector and may need to walk the rail into position from one end or the other
Good time to clean up the fuel rail with a wire brush or scotch bright and paint the color of choise
You can flush into and let sit for a while a rust dissolver solution because the rust is still sitting in there
The bracket filters on the injectors can be removed by cranking in a wood screw after filing off the tip , careful not to blow out the plastic injector
Thanks Don, is there any method for re installing the injectors? Like lubricating the O-rings for a better seal with something? Or are they installed dry? Hoping to get this done this weekend.
Most commercially-available O-ring grease is just plain old silicone grease, also sold as disc caliper grease, dielectric grease, spark plug boot grease, light bulb grease, weatherstrip grease, personal lubricant, etc. Silicone is safer for most rubbers than petroleum-based lubricants, which can degrade many rubbers, but fuel injector O-rings should tolerate petroleum.
Lady P's advice about inspecting the O-rings is excellent. Even better is to replace the O-rings if you have time to order some. Kits for the Bosch/Lucas injectors used on XJ40s and X300s are available on eBay and also include the small basket filters.
Thanks Don. Today I put together a basic jig to test the injectors. It put a can of carb cleaner on the input side and a 9V battery to trigger them. Three worked well. Unfortunately the other three were leaking. Meaning when the carb cleaner was put under pressure at the injector inlet, the fluid was leaking out the other side without and voltage on the trigger inputs. I did try tapping the voltage hoping to free up anything that was stuck open, but they continued to leak. I will email the Jaguar Fuel Injector place that Vee mentioned above and inquire with them, but I suspect they're not fixable. Which would bring me to purchasing a new (refurbished) set of six. I don't have the $$$ to purchase the best. I think I saw some refurbished on eBay. Has anybody had any luck with the refurbished sets online?
Thanks,
Bobby
Update: I've sent the injectors off for refurbishing to Jaguar Fuel Injector Service, But he doesn't have a full set of spares if needed. So I may still need to purchase them online if these are not repairable.
Last edited by BobbyDing; Mar 15, 2019 at 11:50 AM.
Let me know what he can fix and what he can't. I have a few injectors, that I believe he had previously serviced? I had an injector go bad, but I can't recall why I sent him another set to clean and refurbish. In any case, let me know how many you need, and I'll dig up my notes on the injectors. If he cleaned them, I will have the flow rates as well.
Let me know what he can fix and what he can't. I have a few injectors, that I believe he had previously serviced? I had an injector go bad, but I can't recall why I sent him another set to clean and refurbish. In any case, let me know how many you need, and I'll dig up my notes on the injectors. If he cleaned them, I will have the flow rates as well.
Make sure to leave the jig in place. When injectors are not used for awhile they apparently can stick. Your jig should lube things up nicely before you install it. It’ll also give you one final test to make sure they all work!
Make sure to leave the jig in place. When injectors are not used for awhile they apparently can stick. Your jig should lube things up nicely before you install it. It’ll also give you one final test to make sure they all work!
Will do. I thought we'd try changing the fuel filter while we wait on injectors. I know the fuel in the lines will pour out. But will the fuel from the tank come out as well? Or just what's in the lines? Amazingly I found my old 5/8 plumbing wrench. That with an adjustable wrench will hopefully work. We soaked the fittings with a type of liquid wrench last week and will do it again before attempting it.
Anybody have experience with this?
Thanks
Bobby
Last edited by BobbyDing; Mar 16, 2019 at 10:19 PM.
At this point, you’ll have some fuel leech out, but that’ll just be whatever fuel you have in the line between the filter and the fuel pressure regulator.
