I meant 87 Sorry!!!

Hello,

I was wondering what i would need to do a distributor-less ignition conversion on the V12. What parts do i need exactly and technical schematics and install instructions. Also where to purchase a kit if available.

Thanks.

 

There is NO kit available as far as I know. Any DIS would be a custom installation. You would require an ECU to run the ignition modules and if you go down this way you may as well update the Injection ECU as most aftermarket ECU's have fuel and ignition.

What you will need.
Ignition modules - these come in a couple of different types - Dumb modules that require the ECU to fire and smart modules that fire the coils themselves and the ECU only controls the timing. Some come as a single unit with coils and others have separate coils and ignition modules.

Crank sensor - this is a 36-1 tooth wheel on the front of the crank shaft with a sensor so the ECU where the crank is in its rotation.

ECU such as MegaSquirt or similar. to control the ignition. If you go ignition ONLY you will need to provide a tach pulse to the Lucas injection ECU or you will have no injectors firing.

I looked at this and have decided to keep my Marelli distributor and replace the Marelli and Lucas ECU's with a MegaSquirt. This will allow me to upgrade later to DIS if I choose to do so.

Here is a good place to start

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/Ignition.htm

 

Thanks,

That helps..good starting info.

 

warrjon is the man,, knows his stuff!

 

What 36-1 wheel would be best suited for the v12 crank. Ford? or would it have to be a mod job?? If I went with 2 EDIS-6 modules, would i then need two VR sensors? Does the MS ECU recognize this?

Thanks

 

Warrjon is the man!! He's the top CAT!!!

 

DIY Autotune website has 36-1 wheels of differing sizes as well as VR sensors and everything else you might need. You can use Dual EDIS it has been done many times, yes you will need 2 VR sensors mount exactly 60° apart. Each EDIS module has its own VR senor. EDIS and GM's DIS work in a similar way, although ECU control is different.

EDIS has a VR sensor input which it uses to set timing at 10°, once the car is running the EDIS (or DIS) hands ignition control over to the ECU. This is where EDIS and DIS differ, they use different signals from the ECU for ignition advance. The MegaSquirt is compatible with both. DIS is a little more difficult as there is 3 different systems and only 1 is compatible with the MegaSquirt and the part numbers are listed in the MS manual.

If you go this way one thing you will need is 2 logic level ignition outputs (MS2 supports this) from the MegaSquirt or you will need to delay the ignition timing signal 60° to the second ignition module.

The newer MS3 supports the V12 in wasted spark without the need to use EDIS or any other smart module. It has 8 logic level ignition outputs and the V12 only needs 6.

 

Actually, there are kits available for doing this. Electromotive Engine Controls has been offering them for many years. For the past two weekends I have been installing one of their older Total Engine Control units (TEC-1), into my '84. It controls both fuel and ignition, and I was lucky enough to buy a wrecked donor vehicle on which it was already installed, complete with custom wiring harnesses, and I am mostly just transferring the components from the donor to my project car, making the necessary changes to adapt it from the electrical architecture of the 89 donor to that of the 84.

They no longer make the TEC-1. However, their TEC3R is the current model which will work on the V12. If you are just wanting to change your ignition, they also have kits for that in their XDI line of products. They also sell individual components, if you want to build a one-off system. Their kits are NOT INEXPENSIVE, and you will have to make your own wiring harness when you install it, but, they are quality products, and I highly recommend them.

Here is their website: Home - Electromotive Engine Controls

I hope this helps.

 

I just acquired a 95 XJ12 for not a lot of money. The car has the Nippon Denso distributorless ignition system.

I thought about breaking (parting out) the car & using the engine to trial fit the bellhousing for my manual conversion AND retaining the Nippon Denso ignition/injection system to maybe graft it on to my 6.0ltr XJ-S one day in the dim & distant far off future!

However, after driving the car 150+ miles & submitting it for an MOT (it didn't fail on much at all) I am now of a mind to pay for the required work & either drive it about for a while or sell it on to someone with some enthusiasm for it.

Regards

A.

 

Thanks for this info JZ. Can anybody explain to the ignorant me, how you go about setting up the ignition/throttle/injector pulse duration map on such a system. I would love to install a more modern system on my car, but I am scared stiff of blowing a hole in a piston etc etc because I cannot set up the new system properly.

Greg

 

I had a look at that site and this is not an easy install kit, it requires some skills, ie you will need to make a wiring harness custom installation of all hardware and then tune it from scratch for more than double the price of the MS3.

It's not easy to summarise how to set a system up but here goes.

After the system has been installed
1. Set number of cylinders
2. Coil dwell needs to be setup
3. Injector pulses setup (number of squirts)
4. There are a number tables that need to be setup Ignition and Fuel
5. Make sure all sensors are working (this can be done via the software monitor)
6. Start the engine and then tune it


There are many steps I have missed as it would take many pages to detail them here is the MS documentation Megasquirt MSEXTRA Manual Index

 

Thanks Warrjon,

Here is my dilemma. The gears wore down on the distributor(jackshaft)shaft. I saw this once i pulled the distributor assembly off. This is what prompted me to go the distributor-less route. What do you think would be the easiest? try to replace the jackshaft and go through disassembling the front of the motor, or doing the EDIS - ignition system?

Thanks,

CB

 

EDIS still requires a complete ECU swap, wiring harness etc,etc so I think replacing the jackshaft gears might be easier than a switch to DIS, unless you are really confident with what you are doing. If you just install an ignition system and keep the Lucas fuel ECU you need to supply the Lucas with a tach signal from the ignition computer or you will have no injectors firing. I do not of anyone who manufactures a single ignition only unit capable of running the V12, eg you would need 2 MSD units to run the V12 at $600 each plus coils etc.

ANY system you install will need to programmed as there are NO Jag V12 base maps available for most aftermarket ECU's. Having said this if you are adept and do your research now would be the time to switch, plan on it taking you 4-8 weeks to get the car back up and running.

 

i have had my standalone ECU for 18yrs,SDS,(simple digital systems), canada.

i have my own V12 maps for my fuelling area.

had it upgraded in 2002, with improved running, by having tighter computor resolution, using more modern chip engineering.

but i have to say, that it took a long time and many trial&error adjustments, before it would start correctly, idle well(at all temps), have no flat spots or hesitations ,and run the full RPM range without running lean or to rich!

a wideband A/F ratio instrument is a must.

bottom line its called TUNING!! no matter what you do or build in your engine,it has to be performance oriented TUNED.

the ignition is much easier to tune, as long as the engine is N/A, forced induction is a completely different story, ignition maps are totaly different,mainly because at some point,there is no vacuum it becomes a pressure in the manifold!

plus some times on a hi-performance engine you may have to run staged injectors, like for extreme rpm , a second set of injectors come on line, at a predetermined load and rpm + boost pressure!

and last but not least, the learning curve is the most valuable thing you can do with any engine!!!! TUNING, if you havent noticed lately, some shops specialize in just tuning!

i have installed and rough tuned many different systems, some tune better than others.

and now SELf tuning is showing up, and thats great, stanalone systems are probably the best YET!

and be aware that you get what you pay for, some systems are only$1000. some can go into $10,000. Plus or more, like real race cars use TWO seperate channels, just incase something silly happens!

 

pic of my ECU programmer,hand held, not recommended using while driving by yourself! and pic of the actual ECU computer with top off!

the only way to PROPERLY TUNE a Hi-Performance engine, everything else is pure BS!

 

I am about 99% thru installing a Electromotive Xdi2 ignition system on my 1973 XKE. The advance/retard on the distributor was not working properly so I needed a solution. Major engeneering was needed - had a 60 tooth wheel mated to the balancer - had to relocate the oil filter which involved replumbing the oil system and fabricate a barcket for the crank trigger sensor. The six coils now sit in the valley where the distributor used to be. The brain is in the compartment behind the passenger seat.