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Originally Posted by Greg in France;[url=tel:2520813
2520813]I thought that earlier you posted that you had removed the camber bolts and could not move the asembly to get the shims in. That is the situation I thought you were in!
I see, that’s understandable. I put them back in per Jal’s recommendation.
I assume it’s safe to take the bolts out again once the bump stops are completely free of the subframe? They’ll obviously have to come out at some point so I can stick some
washers in there, though I have some generic shims that I may be able to slip in over the bolts so I don’t have to remove them completely.
The camber was measured as follows: +1.4 driver’s front, +0.6 passenger front.
These measurements were taken with the car fully laden. My understanding is if the fronts are supposed to be +0.3 to +0.8 while mid-laden, they should be slightly negative with the full weight of the car on the suspension.
In every thread I’ve read regarding camber, guys are saying their XJS sits with slight negative camber, so that’s the goal.
I’m aiming for about -0.5 on both sides. The book advises the addition of one 1/16” shim = -0.25 deg. So I would need 8 shims, or 1/2” worth of shims, in the driver’s front in order to take off 2 full deg, bringing it to -0.6.
Passenger side should be four 1/16 shims to bring it from +0.6 to -0.4.
Sound right?
Thanks for your help Greg.
Last edited by MrAndersonGCC; May 1, 2022 at 11:37 AM.
You need to be sure of the health of ALL bushes and ball joints before you start messing with camber, the numbers you're talking sound excessive to me so I'd be checking the bottom pretty thoroughly. Camber must be checked at a specific ride height, don't guess or XJS's are notorious for eating front bushes if anything is 'off' - and that includes cheap and nasty bushes not metalastic. Correct ride height is 6 inches from the ground to the bottom of the cross plate on the front subframe, mid laden position requires a pair of setting tubes that locks the suspension at the appropriate height. In any event camber is the absolute last thing you check after you have done everything else including ball joints, wheel bearings and all other bushes especially the lower arms.
The camber was measured as follows: +1.4 driver’s front, +0.6 passenger front.
These measurements were taken with the car fully laden. My understanding is if the fronts are supposed to be +0.3 to +0.8 while mid-laden, they should be slightly negative with the full weight of the car on the suspension.
I believe "fully laden" refers to the car being fully loaded with passengers, luggage, and fuel. That is, at maximum GVW. An empty car, fully resting on the suspension, is not fully laden.
In every thread I’ve read regarding camber, guys are saying their XJS sits with slight negative camber, so that’s the goal.
Rightly or wrongly, all my old Jags have had visible negative camber.
I’m aiming for about -0.5 on both sides.
That sounds about right.
The reference I have closest to hand shows ½º neg camber, +/- ¼º. Jaguar revised the alignment specs a couple times over the years. I can't recall if the camber spec was significantly changed.
What I've always asked for is the settings to be made at existing ride height and adjusted close as practical to the maximum spec. This would mean 3/4º negative camber (and 3.75º positive caster). This has always given good results for me although it flies in the face of published procedure.
I’ll do some research on finding out how to diagnose a bad XJS ball joint since I can’t see anything obviously wrong with mine.
Front subframe mounts look like crap. I’ll be replacing those this week.
Keep in mind this is a V8 swap car on lowering springs, so that may be why the camber was so off (though I should mention it really rides about the same height as a V12 with stock springs). The bottom of the crossmember sits 6.5” off the ground.
Diagnosis is tricky because of the weight on them and pressure from the spring, the older versions of ball joint were shimmed but the newer stuff that's available isn't.
You need to lever the wheel vertically under the tyre whilst off the ground with a bar of some sort - you're feeling for movement - there shouldn't really be any (tiny tiny bit in the bearings) that you can probably feel without a bar - assuming the calipers aren't binding up. With the car jacked have someone move the wheels lock to lock while you look for play, observe the suspension movement in every joint incl steering, make sure there's no front to back twisting or displacement of the lower arms - they should not move in and out, look at lower and upper, again a bar comes in handy but it is kind of hard to do on your own without a vehicle lift.
Trust me. If you want to go back in there, removing the two bolts that hold the upper ball joint in place would have let you move that control arm around as much as you liked.
Someday, when you need to replace the bushings, or the control arms, you'll see what I mean.
2520875[/url]]Trust me. If you want to go back in there, removing the two bolts that hold the upper ball joint in place would have let you move that control arm around as much as you liked.
Someday, when you need to replace the bushings, or the control arms, you'll see what I mean.
Good job finding a way to get the job done!
Thanks Vee - I’ll be sure to do that on the passenger side. The driver’s side should be easy to work with now that it has some shims, so there’s always going to be a gap where I can wedge something in there.
The complete lack of shims made this much harder. Some goofball prior owner likely left them off when they replaced the upper ball joint (it looks relatively new).
Unrelated and don’t want to start a whole new thread: I’m tracking down the faint smell of fuel in my trunk, like so many others before me. I can’t locate any dampness on the pad beneath the tank.
I have three questions:
1) Is it possible to lift the fuel tank up a tiny bit without removing it? If it’s possible to take a peek underneath it without removing a bunch of stuff that would be most ideal.
2) Does anyone know of a fuel vapor detection tool? All my searches have only yielded propane/natural gas detectors, and what I call “broad” fuel vapor detectors that just beep if it senses something, which probably wouldn’t help me figure out exactly where it’s coming from in the trunk since the whole thing smells (though not terribly).
3) As best as I can tell, it seems like the strongest smell is from the expansion tank area. I’m guessing if I clamp the supply and return lines to it, I’d be able to remove and inspect it without taking anything else out?
The manual only describes the expansion tank within the the in text of removing the actual fuel tank.
Thanks!
Last edited by MrAndersonGCC; May 1, 2022 at 06:18 PM.
You may want to search the forum for "fuel tank rivet". I'm not sure it existed that far back, but if it did...you will probably have to pull that tank.
As mentioned previously Jaguar made it interesting for all of us by:
- changing their ride height definition from "hub centre to wheel arch lip" and moving to "bottom of subframe to ground"
- changing the alignment specs for the later cars
- necessitating the use of the "mid-laden pull-down" kit to get the car setup for the alignment settings.
Notwithstanding all of that, you can get things fairly close, particularly on the front end. And with the placement of shims, you can finish with the camber adjustment.
Attached are the image of my settings when being done on a Hunter bed a few years ago.
Unrelated and don’t want to start a whole new thread: I’m tracking down the faint smell of fuel in my trunk, like so many others before me. I can’t locate any dampness on the pad beneath the tank.
You wouldn't have to feel dampness or see an actual drippy leak. Just an ooooze of gasoline will result in an odor problem
I have three questions:
1) Is it possible to lift the fuel tank up a tiny bit without removing it? If it’s possible to take a peek underneath it without removing a bunch of stuff that would be most ideal.
I dunno if the tank can be lifted just a bit. But, really, if you're serious about going after the odor you'll want to bite the bullet and remove the tank and check it out at some point or the other....likely after easier possibilities have been eliminated
2) Does anyone know of a fuel vapor detection tool? All my searches have only yielded propane/natural gas detectors, and what I call “broad” fuel vapor detectors that just beep if it senses something, which probably wouldn’t help me figure out exactly where it’s coming from in the trunk since the whole thing smells (though not terribly).
There is some archived discussion on this with a couple specific recommendations which I obviously can't remember!
3) As best as I can tell, it seems like the strongest smell is from the expansion tank area. I’m guessing if I clamp the supply and return lines to it, I’d be able to remove and inspect it without taking anything else out?
Right.
Although my preference is to use wood dowels of appropriate diameter to plug-off the hoses. You gotta work fast, though, when the hoses are removed..... or you'll have a flood. There's something about clamping hoses that doesn't seem right to me. Like it'll damage the hoses. That's just me; lots of guys clamp hoses without any problem
Appreciate all the responses regarding camber & my side question about the fuel smell.
My new metalastik front subframe front bushings arrive tomorrow. That looks easy enough. Three quick questions regarding the front subframe rear mounts:
1) Do these have to be replaced as well since I'm doing the fronts?
2) Do these have to be OEM as well? I completely understand the importance of using Metalastik bushings where there is some sort of rotation or torsion involved, but the front subframe rear mounts would appear to be pretty stationary objects - basically just dampers. There's obviously not a bolt running laterally through them to allow pivoting as seen with the front mounts, so I wonder how important it is to get the OEM bushings in this particular case (they are also way more expensive vs aftermarket...I'm used to seeing a $30-40 premium, but these are like $100 more each).
3) Is there a trustworthy test for the rear mounts? I can visually see the front mounts allowing too much movement when compressing/decompressing the suspension, but the rears don't appear to do anything.
I’m going to be pulling the engine and transmission later this year or early next year. If it’s possible to wait to do the rear mounts until then, that’s what I’ll opt for.
Originally Posted by Greg in France;[url=tel:2521808
2521808[/url]]Those mounts must be replaced with genuine metalastic.
Ok. Maybe you can clarify something odd I’m seeing in the book.
When replacing the front mounts, the book advises to torque the long bolt, then the clamp bolt, and then lower the car back down. I would’ve thought to tighten the two bolts most of the way, lower the car, and then torque the two bolts down?
I don't see that in mine at all. The only part that I think is weight sensitive is the wishbone fulcrum bolts top and bottom.
If there could be any reason with the large bolts to torque first I guess it would be to allow bush movement so that no side loadings are applied to it. I'm not sure I'd wait until the car is on the ground to tighten the clamps either, the wonderful world of conflicting documentation from Jaguar perhaps but there's no such comments in my books - and I have the factory paper version as well as 3 DVD versions. I'll poke around some and see if I can find some text that matches your book but so far nope.
Frame mounting bushes must be done in pairs at the front, and as a set in the rear, personally I'd do back and front in sets.
Jack-up the front of the car, using a trolley jack under the front suspension crossmernber.
Position axle stands under the jacking spigots, and lower the car onto them.
Adjust the jack to release the load from the bushes,but to still remain in contact with the crossmember.
Slacken off the clamping nut and bolt, securing the relevant mounting bush eye.
Lower the jack SLIGHTLY to improve access to thebush, and tap the bush clear of the eye.
Fit the new bush to the mounting eye. Fit and tighten the clamping nut/bolt.
Fit and tighten the bush mounting bolt/locknut.
Refit the wheel arch dust shields.
Remove the axle stands and lower the vehicle.
I don't see that in mine at all. The only part that I think is weight sensitive is the wishbone fulcrum bolts top and bottom.
If there could be any reason with the large bolts to torque first I guess it would be to allow bush movement so that no side loadings are applied to it. I'm not sure I'd wait until the car is on the ground to tighten the clamps either, the wonderful world of conflicting documentation from Jaguar perhaps but there's no such comments in my books - and I have the factory paper version as well as 3 DVD versions. I'll poke around some and see if I can find some text that matches your book but so far nope.
Frame mounting bushes must be done in pairs at the front, and as a set in the rear, personally I'd do back and front in sets.
Jaguar is weird indeed - I don't have my manual handy at the moment but I'll try to take a picture this evening.
I'll wait to do the front subframe rear "vee" mounts when I pull the engine/trans later this year. Just don't feel like dealing with that right now, I don't hear anything clunking around so I'm not too worried.
