5.0 Reliability- Depreciation, is it psychological??
#61
12-20-2018, 09:39 PM
Veteran Member
Its the looks that got me interested, the interior was also wonderful, my test drive was sublime. It felt much much better than my 370Z even if the performance is similar. A v8 is different from a v6. And I traded for it. I bought it home and my family just loved it.
Then I started reading about what I had bought, learned about all the issues and the costs relating to it. I drove it around for a week, found the mileage around town was poor compared to my Nissan. I called the dealer to ask about an oil and filter change and was quoted $150 (the Nissan Dealer did my oil change for $65). And then I started thinking about the plans I had for the Spring including driving trips to Long Island ((2000 RT) and another to Las Vegas and Ca (about 4500 RT) and got worried. I was getting a few miles less per gallon than my Nissan Z too.
I looked up the KBB price and was shocked to find that a Kia cost more than my Jaguar. I found out that one week after I traded my 2017 370z, I would have to pay $10k plus the Jaguar to get it or another similar to it.
Several times I started driving to a dealer that was selling cars I thought I would get for my long trips (Accord coupe, 370Z, Mazda MX5 etc.), that I would trade my Jaguar in. Half way to the dealers, I changed my mind, the car felt so great, the feeling too good.
The tentative decision is to keep it and enjoy it for now and see how I feel come the new year. If I sell it, I guess I would do it privately and get more than the $13-$15k offered by the dealers in trade ins.
Then I started reading about what I had bought, learned about all the issues and the costs relating to it. I drove it around for a week, found the mileage around town was poor compared to my Nissan. I called the dealer to ask about an oil and filter change and was quoted $150 (the Nissan Dealer did my oil change for $65). And then I started thinking about the plans I had for the Spring including driving trips to Long Island ((2000 RT) and another to Las Vegas and Ca (about 4500 RT) and got worried. I was getting a few miles less per gallon than my Nissan Z too.
I looked up the KBB price and was shocked to find that a Kia cost more than my Jaguar. I found out that one week after I traded my 2017 370z, I would have to pay $10k plus the Jaguar to get it or another similar to it.
Several times I started driving to a dealer that was selling cars I thought I would get for my long trips (Accord coupe, 370Z, Mazda MX5 etc.), that I would trade my Jaguar in. Half way to the dealers, I changed my mind, the car felt so great, the feeling too good.
The tentative decision is to keep it and enjoy it for now and see how I feel come the new year. If I sell it, I guess I would do it privately and get more than the $13-$15k offered by the dealers in trade ins.
#63
12-20-2018, 10:54 PM
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These are some strange arguments and mental gymnastics, all aimed at rationalizing away JLR faults. You shouldn't have to choose between reliable and exciting car, plenty of exiting cars are also reliable.
Now, some here speak with derision about Honda. Well, Honda S2000 is much better made roadster than anything that Jaguar offers. This is probably why today 2009 S2000 valued at $15K (MSRP new $36K), while 2009 XK convertible valued at $13K (MSRP new $84K). Because reliability matters.
Now, some here speak with derision about Honda. Well, Honda S2000 is much better made roadster than anything that Jaguar offers. This is probably why today 2009 S2000 valued at $15K (MSRP new $36K), while 2009 XK convertible valued at $13K (MSRP new $84K). Because reliability matters.
I've driven examples of all the Japanese brands and frankly, they're soul less and underwhelming. The Subaru engine design is a disaster that is expensive to fix as I saw when the engineers at the Honda track in Marysville destroyed a Subaru WRX during hard driving. Those same engineers also admit that the S2000 is limited by its chassis and engine design, especially heavy oil consumption. Even Toyota, with their limited time in Formula One, had a team with a British-based engine and chassis design. I would be more than happy to debate the design of racing engines, gearboxes and chassis with you, but in the end, you'd reluctantly have to admit that the British designs are superior to anything the Germans or Japanese can muster.
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#64
12-20-2018, 10:56 PM
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#65
12-20-2018, 11:34 PM
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I have driven my last five Jaguars; 2 XJRs, 2000 & 2004, as well as all three of my XKs, including the XKR on multi thousand mile road trips with never a mechanical issue. If that doesn't speak to the general overall reliability of Jaguars from 2000 on I don't know what does. True Ahmed, the depreciation is really stiff, but it always is on a luxury car. So now that you are in the pool look on the bright side and enjoy the ride.
#67
12-21-2018, 02:34 AM
As someone who is constantly looking at the negative side of things, why on earth do you own a Jaguar, or any British car for that matter? Just be happy with your Subaru and other Japanese cars and move on!
I've driven examples of all the Japanese brands and frankly, they're soul less and underwhelming. The Subaru engine design is a disaster that is expensive to fix as I saw when the engineers at the Honda track in Marysville destroyed a Subaru WRX during hard driving. Those same engineers also admit that the S2000 is limited by its chassis and engine design, especially heavy oil consumption. Even Toyota, with their limited time in Formula One, had a team with a British-based engine and chassis design. I would be more than happy to debate the design of racing engines, gearboxes and chassis with you, but in the end, you'd reluctantly have to admit that the British designs are superior to anything the Germans or Japanese can muster.
I've driven examples of all the Japanese brands and frankly, they're soul less and underwhelming. The Subaru engine design is a disaster that is expensive to fix as I saw when the engineers at the Honda track in Marysville destroyed a Subaru WRX during hard driving. Those same engineers also admit that the S2000 is limited by its chassis and engine design, especially heavy oil consumption. Even Toyota, with their limited time in Formula One, had a team with a British-based engine and chassis design. I would be more than happy to debate the design of racing engines, gearboxes and chassis with you, but in the end, you'd reluctantly have to admit that the British designs are superior to anything the Germans or Japanese can muster.
SinF's example of the S2000 is brilliant in exposing the false perceptions, fears, misinformation folks have. And it answers my query that it's all in the mind.
When Honda, the technology and manufacturing giant, attempted to make something along the lines of an XK, low volume and high performance, it was a disaster and had to be terminated. While the XK still lives on.
If people actually realize how difficult it is to produce in low numbers, especially as a small company in UK, and the enormous charm that emerges from that; the XK is a marvel.
#68
12-21-2018, 02:37 AM
Veteran Member
SinF something very wrong with your calculations buddy.
There is a reason Honda no longer makes a roadster (and why their cult has driven prices up)
While Jaguar, BMW, Toyota, Mazda are still making roadsters.
The S200 drinks a liter of oil every 1000 miles.(some real **** engineering there)
Can you imagine what a Jaguar owner would say if any Jag required a bottle of oil every month.
Different market/owners.
There is a reason Honda no longer makes a roadster (and why their cult has driven prices up)
While Jaguar, BMW, Toyota, Mazda are still making roadsters.
The S200 drinks a liter of oil every 1000 miles.(some real **** engineering there)
Can you imagine what a Jaguar owner would say if any Jag required a bottle of oil every month.
Different market/owners.
#69
12-21-2018, 07:38 AM
Veteran Member
To answer other part of your question - why do I own a Jaguar. Because I can afford it. Also it keeps Canadian and British people employed, as opposed to people in far-away countries. If more people in the Commonwealth behaved like this we all would be a lot more prosperous.
My Jaguar, when it works, is enjoyable car. It isn't best at any one thing other than looking great, but it is comfortable roadster with a manual gearbox and supercharged engine. Despite it being an unreliable Jaaag in all meanings of the word, it has redeeming qualities that I am actually keeping it around as a permanent addition to my stable. However, I always have an alternative ride in case it decides to act up.
That is, fundamentally, when I purchased my F-type I knew what I was buying. Am I somewhat disappointed that Jaaag turned out to be exactly that? Well, yes, this isn't 80s anymore, JLR can and should do better.
Last edited by SinF; 12-21-2018 at 08:20 AM.
#70
12-21-2018, 08:59 AM
The premise of this question is just wrong. You are implying that the only "right" way to own a jaguar is to do so uncritically. Choices that you present as valid is love it unconditionally vs. give it up and move on. How about a third option - the car isn't my child, I don't have to love it unconditionally and uncritically. I don't like that my car spending at least 1 month of already short summer driving season in the shop, but I do like driving it.
To answer other part of your question - why do I own a Jaguar. Because I can afford it. Also it keeps Canadian and British people employed, as opposed to people in far-away countries. If more people in the Commonwealth behaved like this we all would be a lot more prosperous.
My Jaguar, when it works, is enjoyable car. It isn't best at any one thing other than looking great, but it is comfortable roadster with a manual gearbox and supercharged engine. Despite it being an unreliable Jaaag in all meanings of the word, it has redeeming qualities that I am actually keeping it around as a permanent addition to my stable. However, I always have an alternative ride in case it decides to act up.
That is, fundamentally, when I purchased my F-type I knew what I was buying. Am I somewhat disappointed that Jaaag turned out to be exactly that? Well, yes, this isn't 80s anymore, JLR can and should do better.
To answer other part of your question - why do I own a Jaguar. Because I can afford it. Also it keeps Canadian and British people employed, as opposed to people in far-away countries. If more people in the Commonwealth behaved like this we all would be a lot more prosperous.
My Jaguar, when it works, is enjoyable car. It isn't best at any one thing other than looking great, but it is comfortable roadster with a manual gearbox and supercharged engine. Despite it being an unreliable Jaaag in all meanings of the word, it has redeeming qualities that I am actually keeping it around as a permanent addition to my stable. However, I always have an alternative ride in case it decides to act up.
That is, fundamentally, when I purchased my F-type I knew what I was buying. Am I somewhat disappointed that Jaaag turned out to be exactly that? Well, yes, this isn't 80s anymore, JLR can and should do better.
I wish I was rich enough to keep a beautiful wife (Jaguar) at home for weekends, a beautiful mistress (a lesser sports car) to work and a ***** (rental car) to go long distances but I am old fashioned. I just want one car. Is it the Jag?
Given that I do not have $10k to set aside to help pay for breakdowns and repairs, I need a fun daily driver. Unfortunately, I cant decide. There is a 2016 Honda Accord Coupe with 25k miles (270 HP V6), a 2015 Hyundai Genesis Coupe Ultimate (348 HP, V6) available for my Jaguar plus $2k. To get a Nissan 370Z (2017-2018) costs me $6k to $9k, all with under 25k miles. Given that I drive 20k plus a year, and my concerns about repair bills, I prefer a 2015 and later with 30k miles or less.. Cant decide.
#71
12-21-2018, 09:17 AM
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#72
12-21-2018, 09:27 AM
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I don't know what to say then.
Seems any advice is responded too by freaking out further.
I drove my Jaguar to Martinsville and back for two days of NASCAR racing.
Despite near freezing temperatures, and a morning and afternoon of rain; my trip home after race was relaxing and easy.
I suggested the rental car because you did not seem to like the idea of taking the Jaguar.
I have had my car a little over three years, so it has depreciated even further than when I bought it compared to your recent purchase.
I just consider the depreciation peace of mind; it is easier to replace it should something happen.
Did you think you were getting one over on a used car dealer? An organization in the business of making a profit from buying and selling cars? Did you not look at the value first?
You decided this car was worth more than your Nissan. That should ultimately be your guide to your future.
Seems any advice is responded too by freaking out further.
I drove my Jaguar to Martinsville and back for two days of NASCAR racing.
Despite near freezing temperatures, and a morning and afternoon of rain; my trip home after race was relaxing and easy.
I suggested the rental car because you did not seem to like the idea of taking the Jaguar.
I have had my car a little over three years, so it has depreciated even further than when I bought it compared to your recent purchase.
I just consider the depreciation peace of mind; it is easier to replace it should something happen.
Did you think you were getting one over on a used car dealer? An organization in the business of making a profit from buying and selling cars? Did you not look at the value first?
You decided this car was worth more than your Nissan. That should ultimately be your guide to your future.
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#73
12-21-2018, 09:27 AM
Veteran Member
Having owned both an XK and S2000 they are not fair to compare. S2000 is a bare bones car. Sure it's probably assembled to a higher degree than most Jaguars, but with much fewer parts and was designed as a halo car at the time. $150 for oil change would be a dream come true at a dealer on a V8 IMO. Synthetic OEM oil and OEM filter must be close to $100. Owning a nice British car is more than just "owning", you are also the steward of the car during your tenureship and I feel there is an obligation to maintain these objects to high minimum level. This is not the case with all car.
#74
12-21-2018, 09:28 AM
Senior Member
Zahmed - It seems your risk tolerance level is low. Probably you will be more comfortable with a car that in your perception is more reliable. Get the Honda or Toyota. You will sleep better.
I just drive my car, and deal with whatever may come my way when it surfaces. In the end, they are all cars, and all cars can break down from time to time. I have driven my 10-yr old XK 30,000 miles in the past year and a half, and have had no mechanical issues. I have driven it as a stop and go commuter, I have driven it on long trips and I have driven it on the track. I don't give it a moments thought or worry. If something breaks, I will deal with it. My BMW was way more troublesome than this Jag has been. Life is short. Worry less, enjoy it more.
I just drive my car, and deal with whatever may come my way when it surfaces. In the end, they are all cars, and all cars can break down from time to time. I have driven my 10-yr old XK 30,000 miles in the past year and a half, and have had no mechanical issues. I have driven it as a stop and go commuter, I have driven it on long trips and I have driven it on the track. I don't give it a moments thought or worry. If something breaks, I will deal with it. My BMW was way more troublesome than this Jag has been. Life is short. Worry less, enjoy it more.
#75
12-21-2018, 09:33 AM
Buying something distinctly British, Italian or French does require one to assume the mindset and spirit of the culture.
No different than to appreciate many great things Japanese one has to accept Japanese values.
In fact, appreciating luxury requires appreciating and embracing the trade-offs
Exotic sports cars are the privilege of the optimist and resourceful.
It's like a white sofa. They make Scotchgaurd coated dark brown velour sofas for those worried about stains.
No different than to appreciate many great things Japanese one has to accept Japanese values.
In fact, appreciating luxury requires appreciating and embracing the trade-offs
Exotic sports cars are the privilege of the optimist and resourceful.
It's like a white sofa. They make Scotchgaurd coated dark brown velour sofas for those worried about stains.
#76
12-21-2018, 09:34 AM
Veteran Member
"When it works" is what is scary. Someone said I should rent a car when I want to drive cross country. Its like suggesting you keep your beautiful wife/girlfriend at home, take an ugly ***** when you are going out. There is nothing like driving across the USA, using less used highways and byways. Driving across the less populated upper midwest where you can cruise at 100 mph (your radar detector has to be good) and see signs that show the "next services 70 miles" or drive through the Dakotas in Fall or drive the old route 66. To do that driving in a car which you like, which handles well and has a great sound system IS the point. I would not take the trip in a rented Corolla.
I wish I was rich enough to keep a beautiful wife (Jaguar) at home for weekends, a beautiful mistress (a lesser sports car) to work and a ***** (rental car) to go long distances but I am old fashioned. I just want one car. Is it the Jag?
Given that I do not have $10k to set aside to help pay for breakdowns and repairs, I need a fun daily driver. Unfortunately, I cant decide. There is a 2016 Honda Accord Coupe with 25k miles (270 HP V6), a 2015 Hyundai Genesis Coupe Ultimate (348 HP, V6) available for my Jaguar plus $2k. To get a Nissan 370Z (2017-2018) costs me $6k to $9k, all with under 25k miles. Given that I drive 20k plus a year, and my concerns about repair bills, I prefer a 2015 and later with 30k miles or less.. Cant decide.
I wish I was rich enough to keep a beautiful wife (Jaguar) at home for weekends, a beautiful mistress (a lesser sports car) to work and a ***** (rental car) to go long distances but I am old fashioned. I just want one car. Is it the Jag?
Given that I do not have $10k to set aside to help pay for breakdowns and repairs, I need a fun daily driver. Unfortunately, I cant decide. There is a 2016 Honda Accord Coupe with 25k miles (270 HP V6), a 2015 Hyundai Genesis Coupe Ultimate (348 HP, V6) available for my Jaguar plus $2k. To get a Nissan 370Z (2017-2018) costs me $6k to $9k, all with under 25k miles. Given that I drive 20k plus a year, and my concerns about repair bills, I prefer a 2015 and later with 30k miles or less.. Cant decide.
#77
12-21-2018, 09:38 AM
Veteran Member
I think an important distinction that may be missed in my posts; when I speak of a perception of Jaguar unreliability I do not speak of my own conviction that modern Jaguars are unreliable.
On the contrary, my time was very valuable at the time I made this purchase. I could not take downtime.
I bought my car from researching what would be the most reliable car I could buy, and one that if there were an issue would have limited downtime.
The X150 is designed with clearance of ratchet and socket sets for working on the car. Although I do not consider something going wrong to be likely; the time spent replacing or fixing is less because of engineering time spent optimizing the way the car is taken apart and put together.
For example, the battery terminal hold downs, and battery clamps, are all removed using the same tool. The nuts holding down the battery are the same thread pitch as the bolts that hold down the trim piece. One socket, one extension, one ratchet; job done. I can put the nuts onto the plastic bolts that held in the trim piece so as not to lose them.
Removing the rear taillight assembly, again, only one socket, one extension, one ratchet; and room is left in the body interior to reach everything easily.
So when I speak of public perception of poor design, or unreliability, I speak of those who have not researched these cars and merely act upon jokes and unfounded knowledge.
That perception is very real and it does effect the depreciation.
On the contrary, my time was very valuable at the time I made this purchase. I could not take downtime.
I bought my car from researching what would be the most reliable car I could buy, and one that if there were an issue would have limited downtime.
The X150 is designed with clearance of ratchet and socket sets for working on the car. Although I do not consider something going wrong to be likely; the time spent replacing or fixing is less because of engineering time spent optimizing the way the car is taken apart and put together.
For example, the battery terminal hold downs, and battery clamps, are all removed using the same tool. The nuts holding down the battery are the same thread pitch as the bolts that hold down the trim piece. One socket, one extension, one ratchet; job done. I can put the nuts onto the plastic bolts that held in the trim piece so as not to lose them.
Removing the rear taillight assembly, again, only one socket, one extension, one ratchet; and room is left in the body interior to reach everything easily.
So when I speak of public perception of poor design, or unreliability, I speak of those who have not researched these cars and merely act upon jokes and unfounded knowledge.
That perception is very real and it does effect the depreciation.
#78
12-21-2018, 10:05 AM
Zahmed, I do a lot of cross country driving in my American suv.
Jaguar is made for it, But even finding tires in some towns will cause you delays.
Any 10 year old car on a long trip with someone in your position is not a good idea.
Do you remember the old Camel cigarette adds where he builds a raft to get his Jeep across the water.
That's how resourceful you have to be. That's why they advised rental cars. Yes the idea is not to put the wear and tear on your beauty.
Jaguar is made for it, But even finding tires in some towns will cause you delays.
Any 10 year old car on a long trip with someone in your position is not a good idea.
Do you remember the old Camel cigarette adds where he builds a raft to get his Jeep across the water.
That's how resourceful you have to be. That's why they advised rental cars. Yes the idea is not to put the wear and tear on your beauty.
#79
12-21-2018, 10:09 AM
Veteran Member
Choice A: Take a shave on your Jaguar, to the tune of $3-4K and trade in for something else
Choice B: Take your chances with the car, face potential repairs down the line
My suggestion is to go with Choice B, as losses are only potential, and mitigate downsides by being extra-vigilant with maintenance. My reasoning is that with Choice A you do not fully eliminate the chance of negative outcome from Choice B, as you could end up trading one disaster for another.
Do some checks on your XK - run oil analysis, change all fluids (engine, transmission, coolant), have a shop do an inspection and ask them to specifically inspect coolant pump and pressure test the system. If all comes back with a clean bill of health, then enjoy your Jaaaag.
#80
12-21-2018, 10:21 AM
At this point, your decisions should be about mitigating loses. You do not have no-loss alternative.
Choice A: Take a shave on your Jaguar, to the tune of $3-4K and trade in for something else
Choice B: Take your chances with the car, face potential repairs down the line
My suggestion is to go with Choice B, as losses are only potential, and mitigate downsides by being extra-vigilant with maintenance. My reasoning is that with Choice A you do not fully eliminate the chance of negative outcome from Choice B, as you could end up trading one disaster for another.
Do some checks on your XK - run oil analysis, change all fluids (engine, transmission, coolant), have a shop do an inspection and ask them to specifically inspect coolant pump and pressure test the system. If all comes back with a clean bill of health, then enjoy your Jaaaag.
Choice A: Take a shave on your Jaguar, to the tune of $3-4K and trade in for something else
Choice B: Take your chances with the car, face potential repairs down the line
My suggestion is to go with Choice B, as losses are only potential, and mitigate downsides by being extra-vigilant with maintenance. My reasoning is that with Choice A you do not fully eliminate the chance of negative outcome from Choice B, as you could end up trading one disaster for another.
Do some checks on your XK - run oil analysis, change all fluids (engine, transmission, coolant), have a shop do an inspection and ask them to specifically inspect coolant pump and pressure test the system. If all comes back with a clean bill of health, then enjoy your Jaaaag.