Hi Guys,

It's a shame my first post is one of bad news but hoping to get some advice from some experts as I can see there is a lot of information here.

My car is a Jaguar XKR 5.0L supercharged 2011.

Recently I had issues with smoke from one side of the exhaust and have put it down to a headgasket failure. Symptoms were loss of coolant so car overheating and the smoke (but it would go away after car warmed up). Now to replace the headgasket, I believe it's an engine out job so I got a company who looks after my Nissan GT-R to do this job (they work on many japanese but not many v8's/v10's). I trust the company as they have done many forged engine builds and my current GTR is running 850BHP with no issues and forged internals.

Anyway, the reason I am posting is after removing the engine (and getting the tools to do so), they were removing the crank pulley bolt (excuse me if I got the wrong terminology) and I was told the bolt snapped off after a high amount of torque was put on - it simply would not budge. I have done some research and I can see the older XKR's had a similar issue with a stiff bolt BUT can't see much for the X150.

I have attached a picture of the damage. I am not told that the crank is damaged and it is cheaper to buy a short motor (block, pistons, rods, crankshaft) than the crank which is around £2k whilst block etc is £3k.

What I'm not happy about is I was not told there was a risk in damaging the bolt and I'm being asked to fork up.

I would like to know:
1. Could this have been avoided, if so what should have been done and
2. Should the garage be asking me to pay for this when they broke the bolt?! I did not sign a waiver or anything.

Not had the car for 2 months now and getting frustrated.

I would like to keep this conversation related to the bolt snapping and whether garage should be liable NOT why I took it to a none specialist (I tried two in the UK and neither wanted the job lol). Thanks in advance guys.

Buzz

 

Welcome to the forum and sorry to hear about the bad news.

First and foremost, I would be seeking out a "thread repair" or "bolt extraction" specialist.

These guys make a living from removing broken bolts, in the automotive and industrial sector.

Here in Australia I've called upon the services of such people twice, and it's saved me a fortune.

I don't know where you are in the UK exactly, but these guys are at the top of the googles...

mobile stripped thread repair and helicoil, Timesert, broken bolt and stud removal service

RE-THREAD ENGINEERING - Home

 

welcome and I hope you find lot of advices

 

Welcome to the for and unfortunate for your problem. In my opinion the repair service is responsible for any issues during and after assembly of the motor. This is unusual but not uncommon and if they are professional about it and you have been a good customer they should take care of it. I'm sure if they are good they should be able to drill and remove the broken bolt. I believe this would be part of the risk of doing a rebuild. Good luck

 

I would think any reputable machine shop could get the bolt out with the crank still in the block. I'd call around and ask. It's not really the shops fault but if you're a good customer they should help. Stuff happens.

 

I'd say for any bolt that isn't internal, all it takes is salt splashed into the wrong place, and that bolt can die. Even "Stainless" Steel won't last forever.

Maybe they tried too hard, but either way, the torque to release exceeded the strength of the bolt. I can't see them being liable here.

As a DIY-er on three older Porsche's for almost a decade, some bolts you just have to write off. Extraction/Destruction and removal of the shards can be costly in time(money), but may be the most efficient source.

 

Yeah, I agree, if the shop was negligent they are then liable. In this case it is a failed part that would have happened no matter who had the car, a DIY'er or the best pro-shop. I don't know of any shop that would cover a seized bolt. Unfortunately proving that it was anything other than that is impossible, say for instance you suspected someone had turned the bolt the wrong way and snapped it off. Those of us who own watercraft know the drill, any corroded or seized parts are the owners responsibility when found during repair, obviously way worse than what you see on a typical road car.

I am curious, what is the mileage (KM) on your odometer?

 

From the picture it appears there was a fair amount of corrosion around the bolt. Crank pulley bolts can be very hard to remove, they are usually torqued to very high values. Add corrosion and there is a real problem. Perhaps, after initially not being able to remove bolt, they could have used a heat-torch to help with the removal. Perhaps, even that would not have helped.

Sorry to see this happen, however, altogether, I do not think that this is the shop's responsibility.

 

I would take a look at the refitting instructions.

If it calls for permanent thread locker, then that would
have at least contributed. The vendor says to heat to
350*F before removing.

Lots of people get away without heating, but that's
what the vendor instructions are.

Too late now if that's the case and water under the
bridge.

As for repair, good thing the engine is out. Extraction
and subsequent heli-coil repair are much easier.

A heli-coil repair will be stronger than the original.

 

Thanks for all the feedback.

I suppose I am just a bit annoyed that I was not warned about the potential issue as could have taken a different suggestion (for example by sending the engine to a proper V8 specialist enginer builder) & the original problem was nothing to do with the crank but have incurred more costs. The other thing is I know they didn't follow the technical manual as used different tools to lock the crank, remove pulley etc BUT it would be impossible to prove any negligence as you have all stated.

Car has only done around 30k miles.

I've spent around £30k with the shop with my GT-R so would think I'm a good customer lol.

The joys of owning powerful cars hey..

 

It certainly can be extracted. Just takes time and patience, accompanied with a fine punch and hammer. If they are unable to, an engine machine shop can get it out. No worries.

 

Here in S. Cal there are places that specialize in extractions like that often using lasers. Their prices are VERY reasonable and work excellent sometimes these guys are even mobile so can come to the shop.

As for the OP's problem- those things happen and I highly doubt there was anything negligent on the shops part though they should know of these types of extraction shops and how to best deal with it.

Just an example, never used him - boltguy.com : Eric's Laz-R-Out

 

In the past,I use to heat the bolt up then remove it and even then i would cross my fingers and toes while breaking the bolt loose ..I wouldn't blame the shop,the example above would be ideal.Try aircraft guys they tend to have or know people that have the experience for similar situations

Good luck

 

I've gone through many snapped bolts in my lifetime . Most of them were from snapped exhaust header bolts . Usually I just heat the bolt head and then hit it with a hammer a few times and then spray it with Kroil penetrating oil. Let it soak and repeat and then after it cools remove it. When they snap the key to removal is a sharp center punch and sharp drill bits. I use the step drill process and most times I end up pulling out the remaining thread with a pair of pliers. Also if I break it I pay for it as it is part of the risk of the service. I have never gone back to the owner and asked for more money because I broke a part. I only did this as a side business for a couple of local car clubs (Jag , Alfa's , Ferrari , Corvette , Hot Rods). When I retired I went to reshafting and regripping golf clubs and then working on my own vehicles only. My latest strategy is to buy a late model car and have someone else service it.

 

Bolts are simple machines. Turn in to tighten, turn out to loosen. No matter who loosened it, the same result would have likely happened. However unlikely, you run the risk any time with any bolt.

The only way I would consider the shop liable if it was a) a reverse threaded bolt and they turned the wrong way or b) a keyed bolt that can't be removed until the key is removed. Anything else is just bad luck, and likely more the car than the mechanic.

That being said, if the motor is out of the car, extracting the bolt should not be impossible. It may be difficult, though, if it's stuck with enough force to break the bolt head, assuming the bolt head did not have a fault in it(entirely possible). I would cut a slot in the bolt or drill a hole(can be difficult) and use an extraction bit.

It's not easy, but it should take only an hour or two at most, and the tools required aren't terribly expensive, especially when compared to the alternative.

 

There is always the matter of technique and skill.

A bigger breaker bar is the current fad driven by the
trend to instant gratification. Most of the time they
get away with it. Other times, long sad posts in forums
like this.

 

Skip to 1min 40 seconds


Were they using a tool like this?

 

I would NOT use ANYTHING like that on ANY nut or bolt, ever. Asking for trouble.

 

Call me crazy, but it is kind of clever and no more abusive than an impact wrench. I might fabricate one for myself.

 

Well they are available to buy Private Brand Tools 70865 Crankhaft Tool - Engine Tools

And it seems to be the done thing.

I don't know. I reckon bolt heads seem to "twist" off rather than snap off cleanly, the short sharp impact seems better to me than someone hanging off it on a breakerbar with a constant force.