About a month ago I purchased a 2009 XKR, I'm normally a porsche 911 man but when I accompanied a friend to get some parts for his Jag there was a black 09 XKR, 20k miles, one owner with XKR-s wheels that took my breath away just sitting outside the showroom and after test driving the car, the quality simply blew me away.....so I purchased the car......however.....before I purchased the car I asked the sales guy if the car had a limited slip diff.....he said he didn't know......I told him to ask someone that did as I wouldn't purchase the car if it didn't have one (obviously hard to test if it had one on a test drive in the dry :-)) the manager came over and told me it has Jags own electronic version that does the same thing as a LSD but it's more advanced.........so i bought the car........alas one wet slippery night, all traction control switched off....i nailed it coming out of a roundabout waiting for the car to powerslide out but the inside wheel just started spinning which means no LSD.....no sideways fun in a 420bhp front engined rear wheel drive car!
So i call the main dealer up and ask to speak to the sales guy......no returned call......so I call again the following day insiting I speak with him......finally get hold of him and he says he still doesn't know what a LSD is so he will get a technician to call me, I tell him I'm not impressed and he assures me someone will call me asap........two weeks later......still no call!
In my eyes the car was mis sold to me as I clearly stated I would not purchase the car if it didn't have a LSD....and I was told the car comes with a LSD........anyone have any advice?
Please note I love the car and want to keep the car....however I feel Jag should either install a LSD or compensate me.....and could always fit the XKR-s rear diffuser and front spoiler while they're there ;-)
I am from the UK and purchased the car from a main dealer.
on a side note.....best car I've ever driven.......full compliments to the designers, the way the car works, the switches....the way it syncs with phone, music etc.......just designed to perfection....everything works exactly how you would want it to!.....plus had the centre silencers removed and now it sounds.....well simply put raw and amazing....to die for!
thanks all in advance.

 

Boultson,

If I'm not mistaken, an LSD is not available on any XK or XJ car R version or no. When Jag and many other manufacturers went to advanced computerized traction control the need for mechanical LSDs went out the window. Traction Control, IMHO, serves quite nicely. In fact, LSDs were no longer standard on my XJS starting in the mid 80s and it had no Traction Control what so ever.

Unless you are in for serious off roading I'm not so sure you will miss it. The dealer was correct in most respects. The Traction Control on the car serves as the LSD, it's just not mechanical LSD.

On my XJR, with TC "on", in a tight corner under heavy acceleration, the TC applies brake to the spinning rear wheel, thereby causing the differential to shift power to the wheel with the traction. In other words, it acts exactly like an LSD. The only issue with computer controlled application is that it finds it difficult to apply power equally to both driven wheels and in rare instances it gets confused and fails to give max traction, particularly in soft sand or snow.

Enjoy the car. Its set up the way it should be.

 

hmmm not sure about that my good man......imagine an bmw m car with out a lsd....or a porsche.......it takes the driver out of the equation.....you're unable to steer the car with the throttle.....when you come out of a corner under heavy accceleration it just spins away the power as would a cheap front wheel drive car.
there are a few companies that tune jags offer a lsd upgrade.....they offer this for a reason.
a lsd stops one wheel from spinning and power is distributed to both wheels equally......the jag does not do this :-(

 

Sorry bud. I had sought to make you feel better about your XJR which is set up to be more of a grand touring GT machine with a blended combination of capabilities. It looks like the "blend" left out the part that means the most to you. I would have your car in a heartbeat and will have one within the year. Hope, hope.

Here's hoping you get it sorted out to your satisfaction. Maybe we'll see you on Top Gear in the near future.

 

I believe all F1 cars have electronic traction control, exactly because it does a better job than the drivers ever could in controlling traction. As a long time successful track racer, I can safely say that in just about every single instance a drifting/spinning car will be far slower than one with proper traction maintained through the corners. Having said that I have not tracked my XK, nor do I have even the slightest interest in it. It is simply not a track-type car. The XKs and XKRs are proper GT cars for the street.

Since you mentioned Porsches; you try drifting a rear engined Porsche too much and you are REALLY taking some chances of encountering that dreaded "drift from which there is no return". The laws of physics are squarely against you there! Porsches 911 derivatives, more than any other cars, need to have solid traction maintained throughout the cornering process.

 

I assume that you've seen this Top Gear episode? Skip to 3:20ish if you're impatient.

this Top Gear episode?

 

Good fun for the viewers but would not win any race driving with the tails out, rubber burning, like in that video. Spectacular but, SLOW in the corners! The winning car in a race usually the one that looks like it hardly makes an effort; SMOOTH!. It does prove, however, that sideways driving the XKR is not a problem.

 

You can always have a shop install one:

Limited Slip Differential for Jaguar XKR (Alloy Body) 06-09

Paramount Performance Ltd - Jaguar XK and XKR MY 2006 Ltd Slip Differential

 

the xkr uses a diff with electronic locker if equiped. Look under the car to the side of the front of the diff for a electronic locker solenoid. You may not be operating the car in a correct mode or manner to get what youre expecting from old school tech....in a new tech car

 

That was my only point.

 

Wellllll, not exactly.......


Your were told
" ....it has Jags own electronic version that does the same thing as a LSD"


Not terribly convincing.

I hate to sound unsympathetic but if the purchase was *entirely* contingent on a *single* issue .....having a conventional LSD..... then I would've been a bit more careful. The "does the same thing as a LSD" would've been my clue.

What you should have asked, it seems, is "If I stab the throttle will both rear tires start smoking, or just one?"

Maybe the dealer will be agreeable to some sort of compromise. You buy an aftermarket LSD and they donate the installation labor, perhaps? I dunno. Just a thought.

I wouldn't go in with both guns blazing. From what you've said I don't think you have a full bandolier of ammunition to use against them :-)

Glad you like the car, though. It sounds fantastic !

Cheers
DD

 

Do both rear tires smoke? That's the issue at hand here.

Cheers
DD

 

911 Man;

Glad you like your XKR, high praise coming from a 911 "Lifer".

Had my own 911's in the past.

In my expert legal opinion you are trying to enforce an "Oral understanding" that was not part of the "written contract" that you signed when you bought the car.

In other words you are in the same position as millions of buyers over the years who try to argue 'the salesman said'.

Not likely you are going to get anything out of the dealer or Jaguar unless they are an extraordinary dealer and you still owe them money. Eventually you will find they are not taking your calls at all because they don't have to.


As for drifting each to his own.

I am a big fan of Top Gear and Fifth Gear but always question their preoccupation with drifting. As Axr6 says it is a much slower way around a corner. You will notice they never do it with their own cars....the cost of tires alone makes it an expensive habit.

That said I too was surprised to discover there was no LSD on my '03 XKR that I bought this week. Have already looked at adding one in my other posts. But will wait and drive it for a while to see if this really is critical to my enjoyment or peace of mind.

Most folks don't buy a GT to go sideways in it. Though I do have a rule to always pull a handbrake 180 in any car I own. Hard to do with traction control however.

I wasn't there as you exited that corner but it struck me that you weren't exactly 'driving the conditions' and I am happy you didn't come to grief as so many others have in the past, including myself a couple of times for forgetting that the laws of physics are immutable.

I sold my Audi Quattro to a mate once after I passed some folks on the outside of a freeway entrance ramp because he was so impressed with what, for me, was a daily occurrence.

When I sold it to him I said "now Doc this is a great car but it doesn't suspend the laws of physics". He told me a couple of years later that he didn't understand what I meant until he was crashing off the road into the trees and what I told him suddenly came to mind. "Oh that is what he meant!" I liked that car so much I bought it back from him after it was repaired...

Every car has to be driven with it's own 'limitations' in mind no matter how good the car is.

You have a fantastic car. Save the money on tires you would burn up for that diffuser and spoiler you want.

Enjoy. And post some photos of it for the rest of us.

cheers,

jj

 

I think most performance car enthusiasts regard LSD as de rigueur. I do.

But traditionally it's been an optional extra even on some of the more exclusive machines. Not that I'm a Porsche expert but I *think* it's an extra cost option on 911s...at least the more ordinary variants.

Interestingly, though, Jaguar installed LSD as standard issue on E-types, XJSs, V12 sedans, and XJR/6s....the latter also having electronic traction control as well.

FWIW traction control gives me more peace of mind that LSD. I have the best of both worlds, though. If the mood strikes I can still leave the requisite *two* black stripes on the pavement :-)


Cheers
DD

 

I agree traction control will give you more ultimate speed.......but as a member pointed out: you don't buy a GT car for that type of driving........but allowing the car to drift every now and again is simply good fun :-)
now i don't want to go drifting everyday but having the option when the mood takes me would be nice.
that clip in top gear......that car has a LSD or has an option my car does not.......maybe i do need to speak to a jag technician as with traction control off the car loses all forward momentum out of corners when inside wheel is sliding.
after reading a few reviews....many of the test drivers complain the lacks a lsd......i guess i should have done more research before buying the car, however you would have thought a main dealer would have all the info you require regarding the car in question.
I don't think i have much of a case against the main dealer.....but hey it's worth a try.....maybe they will do some sort of deal with me.
just bought some load resistors.....which means only one thing......time to change the rear lights to LEDs........thanks to the member who put up the pdf instructions.....you're a legend!
also going to install a switch for fuse 19 :-)

 

on a side note regarding trying to drift a 911.....I'm still lucky enough to own a 911 along side the XKR......contrast to many people's opinions, drifting a 911 is quite rare as there is so much grip on the rear tyres as some crazy German stuck the engine there.....so you find you get a lot of understeer and takes some doing to get the car to over steer.......however as pointed out once you do get it sideways there is a fine line between look at me I'm like the stig and put your head between your legs and kiss your *** goodbye.
Porsche 911 are great but simply can't compare with the build quality of the Jaguar XKR.......never thought I would ever say that.......after owning a couple of XJS when I was younger and then Jags build quality going down the pan in the 90s in my opinion.......great to have the big cat back to form!
now just need to save up, sell a kidney and buy a series 1 E-type convertible!

 

911:

In the 70's when Porsche came out with the first turbos the accident rate in California for them was 100%.

Usually the crash was within the first five days of ownership before someone went backwards into the trees or off the road.

That is of course because driving a rear engine car when the back end starts stepping out you have to counter intuitively feed in more acceleration and steer away from the slide to plant the back end again.

Which goes completely against not only the self preservation gene but what we were all taught ie "to let up on the gas and steer into the slide to correct it" and that just speeds up the 'why is everyone suddenly going the other direction...no wait that is me going backwards!' result with rear engine cars.

Most people don't have the presence of mind to accelerate into the problem when things start going sideways.

As an interesting note to history my father was one of the first professional drivers to be asked to drive a Corvair and give the company feed back. He said it was a fantastic car to drive but that a lot of people were going to be killed driving it because of a rear engine car's tendency to swap ends. Sadly prescient.

I know they have made tremendous strides in taming that rear end swap in Porsche's but my 911 was the one car out of all the cars I have had that I never let anyone else drive because the problem was always lurking there for the unwary.

Enjoy both of them. And please post some pics of them side by side.

cheers,

jj

 

Boultons911 also said:
"however as pointed out once you do get it sideways there is a fine line between look at me I'm like the stig and put your head between your legs and kiss your *** goodbye."

Axr6:
Yes, both correct. When racing for decades one tends to develop not only good driving skills but good crashing skills. From the usual starting fields of 30+ cars, on the average, 2 or 3 would experience a crash of varying severities. So, it is only the matter of statistics when it is "your" turn...

The one thing that we learned that once a car's rear end goes beyond a certain angle, about 45 degrees of spin, you generally can not save it, no matter what kind of street or race car it may be. At that point you unwind the steering back to straight ahead, stomp-on and lock up the brakes and basically do what boultons911 said about putting your head between your legs, as I used to call it: "go into your "Save Me Jesus" mental position.

The unwinding of the steering wheel is most important because if you do, the spin will continue in a predictable trajectory. If you leave the steering wheel turned drastically in a counter-steer position a secondary, much more violent spin would easily follow when the first set of tires (front or back) first regain traction. Such secondary spin could be the cause for a much more serious incident. Of course, this very much applies for street driving, as well. I had seen two street cars on racetracks to actually get airborne and do several barrel flips (without touching any objects), land upside down, all due to the secondary spin.

Race driving on the streets can be tremendous fun but, be careful of the potential for that single mistake...

Finally, about the 911 tendencies, long time and very successful Porsche race car driver, Bob Akin's now famous statement regarding the 911's rear engined tendencies:

""You can't make a race horse out of a pig but, you can make an awful fast pig."

Indeed, the same tail heavy construction that caused so many spin out accidents, had some advantages in racing; excellent braking capabilities due to more weight on the rear tires and less front end diving, good acceleration due to weight on the rear tires. Most serious 911 race car variants moved the engine to the mid position, ahead of the rear axle, to avoid the radical rear weight bias. For most teams that raced stock or near-stock Porsches the front engined 4 cylinder 924s or 944s would lap faster than the 6 cylinder normally aspirated 911s on most race tracks, all due to their better balanced, more predictable handling.

Albert

 

I am not sure if anyone mentioned this in the previous threads, but all XK/XKR's have an electronic LSD starting w/ the 2010 model year!

 

Axr6;

I love the 'Fast Pig' quote.

Great review of spin control....I always called it putting the steering wheel back to neutral, so at least you were going straight backwards and not risking flipping when the front wheels caught grip again.

One of my first spins was in the same E-Type I hit the top speed of the car at 120mph vs. a speedo that went to 160 mph.

Coming back from a quick side trip I came over a slight rise in the two lane street I was on and it was just damp enough that when the back end unweighted it stepped out and around in a heart beat even with counter steering....straightened the wheel stomped on the brakes and looking over my shoulder steered backwards to avoid a telephone pole. Distinctly remember that the wooden steering wheel of the E-Type was bent backwards 90 degrees because I was standing on the brakes so hard.

I was surprised it didn't break and lucky no else was around to see it and that this all happened in my own lane and there was no one in the on coming lane.

It's also a good idea to put the clutch in so you don't stall the engine or blow up the transmission.

Conversely when I did the Skip Barber racing school at Laguna Seca they have you practice spinning on purpose and I couldn't do it.

I just couldn't over come my automatic reaction to correct an incipient spin. Never did manage to spin on a track by accident or intentionally.

The 944S was reputedly the fastest and best handling track Porsche since the mid engined 914-6.


Doug: Everything is a cost option on a 911, LSD included.

cheers,

jj