I have searched the threads and saw the posts about using premium fuel (a given for these cars and quite silly to use less than the highest grade).

However, I'm wondering about the ethanol issue. I work with chemical engineers and they are all of the opinion that even 10% ethanol isn't good for cars and causes corrosive damage over time. I would think it would be damaging even faster in some of our less-new Jags that weren't engineered or built with ethanol in mind.

I have been running premium with 10% ethanol for several tanks (just bought it two months ago) and it seemed to run a little rough (as compared to my '08 Explorer which I expect has been engineeered to run without any issues on 10% ethanol, not to mention a lower grade octane). I have not previously noticed the pumps with the 10% ethanol
sticker (Chevron) and am thinking this is relatively new for this brand. So I started looking for a station that did not have ethanol in their fuel and think I have found that with Valero (could not find ethanol markings on their pumps). And I think that since switching over to the non-ethanol fuel it's running smoother.

My husband says he can't tell a difference and it's my imagination. But he doesn't drive it as often as I do (almost daily, and as long as the rain chance is <30% ). I make it a point to turn off the radio and even the air conditioner (when it's under 102 degrees ) so that I can listen to the engine and am very tuned-in to the way it runs, sounds and feels. It's part of knowing your car and being able to tell immediately if something is not right.

I guess (after this long post) the question is: What, if anything, is the 10% ethanol doing to our cars? Has anyone done any extensive research specific to Jaguars?

 

Ann, my wife works for Fluor and she hears the same thing from the engineering types. I think it runs fine in my car and it is a daily driver. The real issue is, you can't find anything but 10% ethanol aroung the Gulf coast.

 

I would add a new level of debate to this post. Last Fall, for about a month in the Atlanta area, there was a fuel shortage and the only gas available was 87 Octane. I did a lot of research on the issue. The result, to me, is that the XK8 will run just fine on 87 Octane. One of the legendary Jaguar posters had long espoused the use of regular gas saying that the knock sensors would compensate and retard the advance to compensate. Charlie Leonard, may he rest in peace, was probably correct. I have used regular since including those containing ethanol with no noticeable knocking or other issues. That is primarily because I am personally offended by the oil industries, especially the futures speculators, manipulation of gas prices. Gasoline goes through 2 levels of speculation at the crude level and at the gasoline level.

I would add that my perception is that my mpg dropped by about the same percentage as the reduction in fuel cost so there is no financial gain.

The ethanol issue probably does reduce the mpg just as the 87 Octane does simply because ethanol has less energy per volume than petroleum based gasoline. Plus, as we are now finding out, after massive federal government subsidies, that converting food stock into fuel is truly stupid.

 

Although I'm sure that there's been plenty of ethanol-gas run through the tank prior to my ownership, I'm not 100% convinced that there isn't some kind of damage being left behind, which will show up down the line in costly repairs. Unfortunately, information on the net seems to be comprised of anti-ethanol groups (very obviously) or pro-ethanol groups (just as obvious). What I'm not seeing is impartial information. Actually that's not true, there is some scientific paperwork out there, but without a chemistry degree it's eye-glazing to read and understand. I haven't seen the tags on Valero's pumps, so I'm going to hope they are abiding by the mandate that if there is more than 1% ethanol they will label their pumps.

I guess in the end, you believe what you want to believe, but I'd like to see some factual, definitive information, and specifically, in relation to my little Jag. I want to keep her running well and don't plan on giving her up until they pry the keys out of my cold, dead hands. (Or till I get a newer replacement, whichever happens to come first.)

 

Yes I would like to further the argument that running regular 87 Octane is safe as long as your engine does not have high compression.

Octane is a rating system that determines the resistance of a fuel to detonation. Detonation is commonly known as knocking or dieseling. This happens when the fuel in the cylinder explodes before top dead center in the compression stroke and the piston is forced to push against the exploding fuel, thus damage is the result. Using a higher grade of fuel prevents this premature detonation. Usually any engine has a compression ration of under 9:1 can use 87 Octane, 10:1 and under uses 89 Octane and 11:1 should use 93 Octane. Now racing engines that have higher compression ratios like 13:1 should use racing fuel that is around 120 Octane. These are rough estimates of what I have seen on cars, however the best advice is to follow the manufacture's recommendation in your owners manual. So if your car only requires 87 and you are using 93, then you are just wasting your money.

Now on to Ethanol.

Ethanol is an alcohol that is produced usually from corn (can be made from other things). It has a higher octane rating than gas, just like racing fuel (alcohol). It is being used to replace chemical octane boosters that are harmful to the environment. I have used it in my Mach 1 which has an 11:1 combustion ratio and it ran perfectly fine. I do not believe that ethanol would be the culprit in harming performance.

Finally on a side note, doesnt Valero get its gas from Venezuela and is thus supporting Chavez?

 

Redjag, I will have to check on where Valero comes from. I thought only Citgo came from Venezuela (which is why I don't use it).

 

Hot dog!

The start of a old time debate!

Charlie, we miss you!

 

We are talking about two different issues here, octane and ethanol. Given a choice I would not run ethanol in any car unless the components of the vehicle were specifically designed to run on that blend. It has an extremely low shelf life, so if you run this fuel in your car, drive it, don't let it sit. Any moisture in your gas tank will significantly lower the octane rating of the fuel. Jaguar fuel pumps do not like any alchohol based additives. Prolonged use will shorten fuel filter life and your gas mileage will suffer.

The AJ26 engine is designed to run on 91+ octane gas. The normally aspirated version has a relatively high 11 to 1 compression. The "R" motors are supercharged so depending on boost the car needs the extra octane. This motor is "tuned" to run with this octane fuel. Knock sensors are meant for temporary protection and not to permanently retard the timing because the owner is too cheap to spend the extra $4 per fill up. Also lower octance fuel burn hotter and may in some instances cause premature wear on exhaust valve seats and the valves themselves. Just run the best fuel you can buy. You wouldn't put oil in your crankcase that was not up to manufacturer's specs would you? There is a reason it says "Premium Unleaded Fuel Only" on your filler door.

 

While I can't speak for older vehicles, I have friends that have driven fairly modern vehicles (1996 to newer) over 300K miles on all the original fuel components using 10% ethanol based fuels. So, long term for the newer vehicles does not appear to be any problem. I'm sure there are people out there that will argue me on this point. This is just a bit of data that I have collected from many people that all drive a given type of vehicle.

As for the older vehicles having issues, this is more of a concern. The older plastics were not designed to be used with ethanol fuels. It isn't so much that it is ethanol, it is the fact that the ethanol is more acidic. Metals/plastics and acidicy is not a good mix in most cases. So, if you have an older vehicle, you may experience problems. But, right now, you really don't have an option as almost all states mandate the use of some amount of ethanol in the gasoline. So, if you can find a station that sells non-ethanol gas, fill up your older vehicles with that stuff, even if it costs a little more. It'll save you from the high bills from a fuel system failure.

 

Maybe thats the company I am not 100 percent sure either.


And for wazari and Thermo I agree completely. Follow the manufacturers instructions, if it says to use 93 Octane, then use it. If it doesnt however, you are simply wasting your money.

 

I can speak first hand that this is true. My 72 OTS V12 is in the shop right now for this issue and it won't be cheap to get it fixed. Damage to the gasket at the fuel bowl (disintegrated in the mechanic's hand as he tried to remove it), 3 of 4 carbs are significantly fouled, choke/throttle linkages are gummed up. It is a mess. This happened when my battery died and I took longer than I should have to replace it. By the time I fired up the car again, Ethanol had done it's damage.

This was not E86 fuel. This was the regular unleaded mixture that includes some Ethanol that many stations now sell. Be careful. Very careful.

 

For years, I was able to get non-ethanol fuel and had no problems with my XKR.

The first season that ethanol-only fuel was available, was followed by winter storage, during which, both fuel pumps went bad. (Car was running fine before storage).

Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

I have similar suspicions.

From what I read about US fuel in the forum, it's generally 10% Ethanol. I also read regular reports of fuel pump failures. It may not be to the level where the pump(s) won't last the life of the vehicle but must be a high proportion.

In the UK we currently have 5% Ethanol in our fuel. It's not widely publicised and many motorists are unaware there's any content! The big difference is fuel pump failures are much rarer. My last three Jaguars all went well over the 100K miles without any pump issues. I can't recall the last time a friend or colleague had a pump issue with any of their vehicles.

We are due to adopt the Euro standard of 10% Ethanol and it will be interesting to see if fuel pump failures begin to rise.

The only other difference I can think to account for the disparity in pump failure could be ambient temperature. In many parts of the US the fuel in your tank will always be warmer that over here. Perhaps pumps operating constantly at higher temperatures fail faster?

Graham

 

Lets add one more item to the discussion. How many people that have had problems have stored their vehicles (cars, boats and small engines} for more than 30 days? As stated above gas with ethanol has a short self life. We in the south do not have the extreme weather that our northern members do. So we have the option to continually operate gas engines.
Goggle this article "The 411 on Ethanol"
Must folks that add additives to the gas fail to do one very important step in the process which is to run the engine after the additive is added. The insures that all the fuel system is treated.
The toys that I use them on:
Mercury 150 hp outboard
Mercury 20 hp outboard
Polaris 4 wheeler
Harley Davidson
all lawn equipment

Does it work? Well I have not had a fuel system problem yet. Good luck Jim

 

Ethanol is fine for all cars built after 2000.

So no worries

 

I'd like to chime in, briefly :-)

First let me say that I'm not a chemist, engineer, metalurgist, or forensic examiner. I'm just a guy. :-)

I work for a family that owns a large collection of classic/specialty/exotic cars. The major part of my job is to keep the cars roadworthy and in good running condition. Storage periods range from weeks to months....or even years.

Briefly, I have no problem starting/running/driving cars that have been sitting for months with E10 fuel in the tanks. Or, frankly, even longer. There may be a degradation of performance if the cars are driven agreessively but I usually don't thrash 'em too hard when they come out for exercise.

Some of the cars have years-old fuel in the tanks. When gas gets that old I'm not sure how to differentiate between an supposed ethanol problem versus plain, old fashioned "stale gas".

As for actual damage caused by ethanol, again, I'm not sure how to identify an ethanol problem. I spend plenty of time replacing leaky carb gaskets, dried-out seals, rotten fuel hoses and the like but I'm not convinced that 10-20-30 year old hoses and gaskets can be expected to be leak free with or without ethanol.

There's lots of conversation about corrosion-like damage. Maybe so. I haven't open up fuel tanks to examine them.

I dunno...maybe I'm just not seeing it but in the end I'm not at all convinced that ethanol is as bad as many say.

Additionally, as we all know, ethanol has become a political football. IMHO that immediatley puts into question the veracity and motivation of what I read and hear, either pro or con.

Just my puny 2-cents :-)

Cheers
DD

 

The other thing that you did not mention is that in most, if not all of those other engines, the standard practice is to shut off the fuel valve while the engine is running and then let the engine run out of gas.

Fortunately for me, I don't have to store my Jag in the winter in Louisiana, so the storage issue is not a concern with my Jag, but my boat is another matter. A boat is almost always in a "storage" mode, unless you are one of those people who an take it out a few times a month. Ethanol is a huge problem with boats, as the fuel systems are not typically closed systems and ethanol attracts moisture and will lead to build up of water in your tank. I had a problem with that when I bought my boat, because it had been in storage for quite some time before I bought it.

 

Do you guys who don't use the recommended octane rating of fuel use the same practice with other recommended products for your Jag?

Do you use a different brake fluid, or power steering fluid, or oil or anti-freeze or do you go along with those recommendations and it's just for the gasoline that you choose to disagree with the recommendation?

I certainly don't care what fuel you use, you can use whatever you like, but after hearing how some people go against the recommendations for fuel, I was just curious as to whether or not they also go against the other recommendations as well.

 

Just some micellaneous ramblings and observations...

Funny how during the fuel shortages of the '70s 'Gasahol' was introduced to the public as an extender and the price was significantly less than straight petroleum fuel. Today many of us have no choice and ethanol blends are all we have available. 'Oxygenated' fuels are forced upon many of us in various locales as a smog deterrent, at least seasonally, and the price of these ethanol enhanced fuels is higher (yet they were introduced to us in the '70s as a way to economize the fuel - see above)

In the '80s I had the opportunity to chat with the man (chemist? - doubtful) in charge of regulating flow of various additives at a refinery in Jacksonville, Fl. He told me that the ratio of ethanol to fuel, at that time, was supposed to not exceed (failing memory here) around 3-4% but he was routinely instructed to "keep adding more until we begin receiving complaints then back it down a click or two." He explained that the base metal castings used in carburetors and fuel pumps were porous and zinc was added to seal the pores. Unfortunately, however, ethanol above the 3-4% ratio would attack the zinc and those castings would eventually/inevitably become porous. That part I can attest to because a great deal of my business each day was solving fuel issues, especially those stemming from empty-bowl carburetors which required extended crank times each morning in order to start. Advanced porosity resulted in hard starting hot engines as fuel would seep through the carburetor and drip into the intake manifold causing a too-rich condition. Cold engines with advanced porosity developed a tell-tale black smoke start-up followed by a short rough running idle. Fuel pump seepage was easily evidenced by amber stains resulting from fuel seeping through, collecting dirt and turning to varnish with age.

Some OEMs realized what was going on and became proactive. Ford, for one, began 'hardening' their fuel systems fleet-wide. Ford, for one, recognized the issue was even more prevalent in their central and southern America vehicles (who hasn't heard of horrible fuels south of the border?) and came to the conclusion it was only a matter of time before it would spread elsewhere so they just took in stride and headed it off internationally. GM, and others, decided to take the cheap route and ignore the issue. I know it's happened in various areas, around here it was about 7-8 years ago when Marathon oil decided to screw with the ratio to the extent that the ethanol began eating up fuel pumps and senders like crazy. I had an excellent summer, replacing 4-5 pumps each day, mostly GM cars. Later, Ford began upping its production of e85 'flex-fuel' cars, denoted by the little green leaf badge on so equipped cars. This was an extension of 'hardening', the fuel systems were already set for e85, the additional work was to protect the engines internal components. I'm sure other OEMs employed hardening at some point and to some degree, I just recall Ford as an early adopter. Whether or not it covered Ford's additional marques (Jaguar, Volvo, et al) I have no information.

What I'm trying to convey is be wary of low-priced, dubious suppliers/retailers. They may share the greed of the past refiners and twist the dial up a notch or two while nobody's looking. I've wondered how many peeps were hosed by Marathon before the situation became pandemic enough to be recognized as the refiner's fault.

Those that store their cars for a month or longer should consider adding Stabil or such to their tank and running the car a bit before storage.

 

I think your info is wrong, ethanol will not gum up or even turn to jelly, that was your gas. ethanol will breakdown in a relatively short time, that is why it is only added to the gas just before it goes to deliver to the gas stations. When ethanol breaks down, it separates from the gas and usually turns into a gas and that is when it does its real damage, most cars built after 96-97 use vitro seals or similar which are resistant to ethanols effect.

Just for your info, there is rarely 10% ethanol in gas, it is usually in the 7-8% range, though there does tend to be more in premium gas.

I have a Volvo T5R w/330k miles and have never had a problem with seals. My vette has well over 200k w/no problem except the FI's, if ethanol was as bad as everybodt thought, there would thousands apon thousands of lawsuits.