The following comes under the topic of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" and the folly of ceramic brake pads and why one should not be so quick to install them for normal Jag work and enjoyment.

1. Ceramic brake pads (CBP) cost more, in some cases a lot more.

2. CBPs chew up brake disks approx 3 times faster than standard pads.

3. CBPs screw up the brake modulation characteristics of the car that Jag engineers worked so hard to perfect.

4. CPBs are a poor solution to brake dust given the advent of modern wheel protectant sprays such as Armorall.

5. Objective testing has shown that CBPs degrade brake performance for normal driving situations. CBPs are designed to work well in high heat situations such as rally/racing and Top Gear television shows.

Okay, the boy racer lynch mob is gathering. I can see their spear points gleaming and I better get on out of here while I still can. I figure this rant is worth about 20 posts.

 

Heh heh...pretty broad remarks considering how many different ceramics are being offered these days.

My experience is only with Akebonos.....

1) Maybe. My Akebonos were about $75/set. Not sure how much OEM Jaguar pads are

2) Maybe. I haven't seen evidence of rotor chewing, personally.

3) True. More on that in a minute

4) The Akebonos give off virtually zero dust. Why would this less preferable to having more dust and cleaning it with ArmorAll ? Less dirt to clean is a good thing for me :-)

5) Not really. Well, sort of :-)


Some commentary on #3 and #5.....

My experience with the Akebonos is that they give a generally softer pedal feel and less stopping power under light applications of the brakes. When hard stopping is needed, they grip *fiercely*. Warming them up is not required. They work well hot or cold.

The feel and modulation DID indeed change, though. No question about it. It doesn't take long to adapt, however.

Cheers
DD

 

Doug,

Relitive to item 4, there is a new range of products on the mkt. generally called "wheel protectant" They are not cleaners but synthetic polymers. I've only used the Armorall brand but I'm told that Europe has a whole range of brands.

Anyway, I've had pretty good luck with the stuff even thou I've only been using it for a month or so. Almost no brake dust around anymore.

 

I've also got Akebono Euro brake pads (due to Doug's and other's suggestions). I will say that they really aren't that great with providing a no dust experience. The money that you would spend on all of that wheel protectant would greatly out weigh the price in CBP's.

The braking power is a bit different than the other pads that were on the car, and they are exactly what Doug stated.

Everything being said, will I go for ceramic when it's time to do the back brakes? Probably. It depends on how much money I've got at the time. So far, I've yet to experience anything I'd call "negative" with regards to having ceramic pads.

 

I put the Akebono ceramic pads on my XJ8 about a year ago. I have been very satisfied with them. The reason I had new brakes is that the OEM ones were squealing like a banshee. I had two different dealers look at them. One said that is just a characteristic of a Jaguar(sad statement from a dealer). The other dealer roughed the pads and turned the rotors for about $450! That lasted about a week. I had an independent mechanic install the new pads and rotors. He recommended to use new rotors with the new ceramic pads so they would equalize easier. I have been very happy with them and they are completely noise free and dust free. So far I can see no wear on the pads or rotors. I would definitely do it again!

 

TopHat,

The wheel protectant cost about $7 for a spray can that is good for 3 applications if used spairing. If stays effective thur about 3 car washes between applications but I must admit it starts to flag on the last cycle.

I make that out to average less than a dollar per clean up. Thats not too bad. Give it a try no matter what kind of pads you settel on. Let us know what you think.

 

I've yet to find the Armorall Wheel protectant. Funny thing. I went out and detailed my car after that first post, and had very little brake dust. Go figure.

 

I installed Akebonos at 100,000 miles on the original pads (which still had adequate lining(!). 25,000 miles into the Akebonos, the rotors are fine, and I have had zero dust issues, no squealing.
The Akebonos work fine for normal, even reasonably spirited driving, BUT they are woeful indeed at ultra-speed emergency braking - irregular grip, difficult to modulate, downright scary to the point that on two occasions at speeds in excess of 130mph (yeah, yeah, I know) I feared for loss of control on straight level highways. Rotors were true and pads looked good when removed for inspection after the second, uh, incident.
I shall not buy them again for any of my vehicles. Brake dust is very easy to clean from the Penta wheels; body work (both vehicular and human) ain't so good.
I'll try the wheel protectant on my other vehicles, and on the XJR when I switch back to OEM pads.

 

Are you sure there isn't more to this than just the brake pads? (Not arguing, just thinking out loud)

It almost sounds like you were getting some ABS activity there.....


Cheers
DD

 

Sorry but I have to ask. What exactly are we talking about when we say "modulation"? Are we talking fade, uneven feel, or chattering like when the ABS kicks in.

My Akebono euro pads and Centrix rotors are about to be installed.

 

Hmmmm. How to explain?

Brakes that respond smoothly and progressively and consistantly, with reasonable pedal effort, would be considered "easy to modulate". In other words it is easy to control the amount of stopping power. They brakes respond as you would expect them to.

If brakes erratically grab, or offer little stopping power and then suddenly grab fiercely, or in any other way it is difficult to get the degree of stopping power you want or expect at the moment, the brakes would be considered "difficult to modulate".

Cheers
DD

 

Mohrd, what Doug said - spot on. Doug - no, no ABS activation - I'm very well familiar with that; dry roads, no pulsation. Just Very erratic modulation, almost unmanageable intermittent braking action....

 

Opps . See above.

 

So let me step back into this brawl. Jaguar sells these $60 to $150,000 cars, spends millions to sort out and optimise all it's features and functions but equips the product with inferior non ceramic brakes? To save a few production cost bucks?

Come on blokes. Do ya believe in the Easter Bunny too?
I admit this logic would be a bit more persuasive if Jag hadn't given XJs the air suspension system but they are known for the occasional **** up.

There are super cars priced north of $200,000 that get standard ceramic brakes. But----these cars do 150 MPH + they are race/rally ready or they preport to be but they are marginally streetable.. There are lesser cars optioned with ceramics but they are focused on the boy racer mkt (flash over substance) to begin with and they make no claim to refinement or even competence. My logic is a little shaky here as I know a little about XJs and a lot less about super cars.

Summing up. Jag gave us a braking system optimised for what the car preports to be. Change to ceramic brakes to minimize brake dust (or for any reason you care to state) and you lose that carefully thought out ballance of performance, comfort, linearity, predictability, etc. over a wide range of conditions.
Nothing wrong with that blokes. We just can't extoll ceramic brakes and neglect important draw backs.

 

Markus,

As much as I would like to take your post as a butress for my position re ceramic brakes I got to go with Doug. There may be something strange with your brakes besides ceramic pads.

My understanding was that the conditions you described ( high speed brakeing) was where ceramics excelled. Mind you, I'm just a theory guy. I've only driven one car equiped with ceramic brakes and then nowhere near the limit but I would get to the bottom of this.

 

In the broadest sense I fully agree. Jaguar, like other quality car makers, have the compromises well sorted out and give us a brake pad (or whatever) that does exactly as you describe.

Still, though, it's a compromise.

Those willing to sacrifice "X" characteristic to gain a bit more of "Y" characteristic are free to do so. The important thing is to KNOW that there will be trade-offs...and hopefully you'll know what they are before actually taking the plunge.

Me? I love the Akebonos because, IMHO, they provide superior stopping power when you need it most. I am willing to accept some "downsides"...such as the softer pedal... in exchange.

If I recommend Akebonos I disclose any drawbacks that I'm aware of. If I forget to...and I may occassionally...then bad on me !

Cheers
DD

 

Markus,
When was the last time you R&Red your brake fluid? Your issue sounds like boiling brake fluid to me.

I don't know if it's even possible with ceramics but could you have glazed the pads. A cold panic stop from 150 MPH with regular pads will sometimes result in trashed pads--- maybe it's possible with ceramics too?

One other thing. There are certain types of surface hardened brake disks that cannot be turned (machined) down without removing the surface you've got to have for reliable high speed stops. Maybe you have removed that hardened surface by machining or the ceramics cut down thru this surface. On this one I'm thinking way above my pay grade. Just trying to throw out some ideas.
Doug,
Sounds like we are in accord. Your last post makes perfect sense to me. I must be sobering up.

 

I have Akebonos on my 04 XJR and I like them alot. The stock pads bite way to hard for me for average stopping. I have had them for about 5K miles and a 1/10 of the dust compared to stock. I have made 1 or 2 stops from 100+ without any problems. The modulation is far superior for my day to day use. The rotors I have on the car now had factory pads on them for about 20K miles and no adverse effect when changing to ceramic. The only problem I have is a slight wrap in one of the rotors and I don't think the pads caused it.