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I have also been in touch with Graham. Perhaps if IB were to reach out to Graham he would fill you in. After his many years and contributions to the Jaguar Forums, this seems like the least IB could do.
Regarding the Like button, I thought the transition from Thanks to Like was a downgrade. "Thanks" seems a more personal expression of "I appreciate you and your contribution." "Like" seems more focused on the content to the exclusion of the poster.
I also thought it was unfortunate that the Like button was, at least for a long time, not visible on mobile devices unless the user specifically located and selected the View Full Site option. I found it frustrating that before I could Like another member's post on my phone, I had to go back to the forum menu, select View Full Site, then go back to the post and leave my Like. And after the transition from Thanks to Like, I noticed a significant decline in the rate at which my own posts were being acknowledged. I suspect this coincided with a rise in the number of users participating on the JF via their phones, users who never even saw the Like button.
I agree with those who find the new format impersonal. Yes, the Likers' usernames can be viewed by opening the dropdown menu, but this entirely misses the point.
The Jaguar forums relies on content created by thousands of unpaid volunteers, whose unpaid contributions help "aggregate eyeballs" so IB can sell paid advertising. These unpaid volunteers share their knowledge and expertise not only because of their love of Jaguars, but also because they enjoy participating in community and the positive feedback they receive. This is basic human nature. Positive affirmation encourages continued participation.
In my mind, the visible Likes served at least three purposes:
1. Visible Likes help readers to more quickly find the most pertinent and accurate posts, as already affirmed by other members. Yes, the content of the post may be more important than the Likes, but if readers skip over the post while scanning the dozens of posts in a thread, they may miss the best post entirely, when visible Likes would otherwise have caught their eye.
2. Visible Likes, especially when known gurus are among the likers as Ken mentioned, give credibility to both post and the poster. One of the greatest risks on any forum is that faulty information is accepted and repeated. The visible Likes tended to help users find the information that is most generally-accepted as accurate and reliable. Since the vast majority of our members are not gurus, but humble do-it-yourselfers in need of guidance, the visible likes were beacons guiding them to the best content.
3. Visible Likes give posters positive affirmation they deserve, which helps motivate them to keep coming back to share more of their knowledge and experience. In my ten years at JF, I have left more than 19,000 Thanks/Likes for others, so I'm a big believer in expressed appreciation. And since expressed appreciation is the only payment IB offers to the unpaid volunteers who create the content by which IB profits, why not make appreciation BIGGER, MORE VISIBLE, and EASIER TO EXPRESS, rather than nearly undetectable? Has anyone at IB actually looked at the size of the new Thumbs Up button when viewing the Jaguar Forums on a phone?
+1. Me 2 . . . I don't like the new, de-humanized LIKES button where names are reduced to numbers.
And I feel frustrated with excuses of "Not our fault . . ."
You may dismiss me as old and cranky, in which case, I agree!
But then, I'm a lousy sheep . . . I hate queuing and I grind my teeth at PC.
I rebel rather than chant "Yes Sir; No Sir, 3 bags full, Sir!"
And I sense we are not alone . . .
To the comments from our Wizard Of Oz, I would add . . . "Why BREAK summat that didn't need changing?"
I have dillied and delayed my comments in trying to remain constructive and it may only be my 2c but, having returned after some absence, I sense a dwindling of activity here compared to a decade ago, and this de-personalizing of JaguarForums may only fuel that trend. What a disappointment!
IMHO, we deserve to do better. Do other members agree?
+1. Me 2 . . . I don't like the new, de-humanized LIKES button where names are reduced to numbers.
And I feel frustrated with excuses of "Not our fault . . ."
You may dismiss me as old and cranky, in which case, I agree!
But then, I'm a lousy sheep . . . I hate queuing and I grind my teeth at PC.
I rebel rather than chant "Yes Sir; No Sir, 3 bags full, Sir!"
And I sense we are not alone . . .
To the comments from our Wizard Of Oz, I would add . . . "Why BREAK summat that didn't need changing?"
I have dillied and delayed my comments in trying to remain constructive and it may only be my 2c but, having returned after some absence, I sense a dwindling of activity here compared to a decade ago, and this de-personalizing of JaguarForums may only fuel that trend. What a disappointment!
IMHO, we deserve to do better. Do other members agree?
With ya there Ken.
LUV their replay, duh NOT.
I have noticed a huge change in the atmophere since IB and GGG had a run in and GGG left the area.
NO reflection on you Norri, you are good at what you do.
Enough Grant, go play with the Chrysler, and calm down.
Use the drop-down arrow next to the number to see the names.
Yes, I understand drop-down arrows (began coding in 70s), but I do feel you miss entirely the principle of my critique.
As the former Australian Co-ordinator a decade ago, then NSW Regional Co-ordinator after gathering together a great team of pals for similar roles in each other State here, I found quickly that the appeal of JaguarForums may begin with a problem to be solved, but the transition to active and ongoing membership lies in establishing and nurturing deep personal friendships. Be it JF rallies, show and shine, weekends away, those meets brought together more than a bevy of beautiful Jaguars . . . it brought together like-minded people and partners . . . and friendships flourished !
Laying out the welcome mat via the New Members Forum is a great feature. Promoting the opportunity to give visible thanks was a further step. Seeing likes from named gurus conveyed trust. If all you aspire to offer is a barrage of opinions on car problems, then sooner or later, YouTube or Google will swallow you with barely a burp, despite no end of posts there offering unreliable or downright wrong info. None of us want to see that.
Criticism, even well intentioned and rational, is tough to take. For my part, it would be easy to just move on. However, I implore you to test the water . . . and consider reversing this retrograde change.
Yes, I understand drop-down arrows (began coding in 70s), but I do feel you miss entirely the principle of my critique.
Originally Posted by cat_as_trophy
+1. Me 2 . . . I don't like the new, de-humanized LIKES button where names are reduced to numbers.
I'm not following how the point of issue was missed and that the Likes are de-humanized by numbers, because the names are still there and I explained how to access the names in case it wasn't known.
Displaying all the names of Likes for each post can easily clutter up a post and the reading experience, depending on the post and activity level. Cleaning up the interface was actually why the Likes slightly changed as did a few other things. The content of the post is primary and Likes are secondary to the content.
Not all changes are going to be received positively by all members. We do listen to feedback and thank-you for yours.
@IB JT This recent change is a shot in IB's foot. Instead of making this great Forum more user-friendly so it will continue to grow, management did the opposite. You're seeing the tip of the iceberg of unhappy Forum members here, in this thread, only because we've been lucky to find it.
To know what Forum members think about this change, you need to create a new thread for every Jaguar model that asks the question and includes a poll in which each member can reply. Make sure to include "Bring Back the Like
Button" as a poll choice.
I'm also a fan of former Moderator @GGG . Graham (GGG) was very knowledgeable and helpful, but apparently was offended by someone in IB management. He left in a huff and took all of his shared files with him. I don't consider that to be progress.
I hope my truthful comments don't get me banned from this Forum, as I have learned a great deal being here from so many helpful members. The Forum wasn't broken and fixing it made it worse.
I've been a Forum member since 2010 and am active in the X150 Forum (2007-2015 XKR/XKR) and X351 Forum (2010-2020 XJ). I doubt that I would still have them both without all the support from this Forum.
While we do listen and appreciate the feedback, and that is sincere because we do use it, it is not standard to spam the forums asking for feedback for every little change (before or after). Most people come to Jaguar forums looking for help, or to provide help, with Jaguars. We rolled out this same change to dozens of our other auto communities without the same concerns.
More importantly, none of us on the team are aware of any conflict with GGG that would cause him to abruptly leave without giving notice or discussion to any of us. In fact, we would be surprised for such an action. Instead, we believe something may have happened to GGG. Has anyone here actually heard directly from him?
Thank-you.
Originally Posted by Stuart S
@IB JT This recent change is a shot in IB's foot. Instead of making this great Forum more user-friendly so it will continue to grow, management did the opposite. You're seeing the tip of the iceberg of unhappy Forum members here, in this thread, only because we've been lucky to find it.
To know what Forum members think about this change, you need to create a new thread for every Jaguar model that asks the question and includes a poll in which each member can reply. Make sure to include "Bring Back the Like
Button" as a poll choice.
I'm also a fan of former Moderator @GGG . Graham (GGG) was very knowledgeable and helpful, but apparently was offended by someone in IB management. He left in a huff and took all of his shared files with him. I don't consider that to be progress.
I hope my truthful comments don't get me banned from this Forum, as I have learned a great deal being here from so many helpful members. The Forum wasn't broken and fixing it made it worse.
I've been a Forum member since 2010 and am active in the X150 Forum (2007-2015 XKR/XKR) and X351 Forum (2010-2020 XJ). I doubt that I would still have them both without all the support from this Forum.
I have also been in touch with Graham. Perhaps if IB were to reach out to Graham he would fill you in. After his many years and contributions to the Jaguar Forums, this seems like the least IB could do.
Regarding the Like button, I thought the transition from Thanks to Like was a downgrade. "Thanks" seems a more personal expression of "I appreciate you and your contribution." "Like" seems more focused on the content to the exclusion of the poster.
I also thought it was unfortunate that the Like button was, at least for a long time, not visible on mobile devices unless the user specifically located and selected the View Full Site option. I found it frustrating that before I could Like another member's post on my phone, I had to go back to the forum menu, select View Full Site, then go back to the post and leave my Like. And after the transition from Thanks to Like, I noticed a significant decline in the rate at which my own posts were being acknowledged. I suspect this coincided with a rise in the number of users participating on the JF via their phones, users who never even saw the Like button.
I agree with those who find the new format impersonal. Yes, the Likers' usernames can be viewed by opening the dropdown menu, but this entirely misses the point.
The Jaguar forums relies on content created by thousands of unpaid volunteers, whose unpaid contributions help "aggregate eyeballs" so IB can sell paid advertising. These unpaid volunteers share their knowledge and expertise not only because of their love of Jaguars, but also because they enjoy participating in community and the positive feedback they receive. This is basic human nature. Positive affirmation encourages continued participation.
In my mind, the visible Likes served at least three purposes:
1. Visible Likes help readers to more quickly find the most pertinent and accurate posts, as already affirmed by other members. Yes, the content of the post may be more important than the Likes, but if readers skip over the post while scanning the dozens of posts in a thread, they may miss the best post entirely, when visible Likes would otherwise have caught their eye.
2. Visible Likes, especially when known gurus are among the likers as Ken mentioned, give credibility to both post and the poster. One of the greatest risks on any forum is that faulty information is accepted and repeated. The visible Likes tended to help users find the information that is most generally-accepted as accurate and reliable. Since the vast majority of our members are not gurus, but humble do-it-yourselfers in need of guidance, the visible likes were beacons guiding them to the best content.
3. Visible Likes give posters positive affirmation they deserve, which helps motivate them to keep coming back to share more of their knowledge and experience. In my ten years at JF, I have left more than 19,000 Thanks/Likes for others, so I'm a big believer in expressed appreciation. And since expressed appreciation is the only payment IB offers to the unpaid volunteers who create the content by which IB profits, why not make appreciation BIGGER, MORE VISIBLE, and EASIER TO EXPRESS, rather than nearly undetectable? Has anyone at IB actually looked at the size of the new Thumbs Up button when viewing the Jaguar Forums on a phone?
My friend, you have grasped the points I attempted . . . and done so very accurately and eloquently.
I Liked what you said, and found it more important to extend my Thanks . . . sort of!
My frustration is that all our time could be better spent fixing serious JF issues that are broken . . . like the Battery 101 Sticky in the S-Type forum that, after humungous effort by a team of those very volunteers, has fallen victim to an inaccessible Merdiafire account.
I'm not following how the point of issue was missed and that the Likes are de-humanized by numbers, because the names are still there and I explained how to access the names in case it wasn't known.
Displaying all the names of Likes for each post can easily clutter up a post and the reading experience, depending on the post and activity level. Cleaning up the interface was actually why the Likes slightly changed as did a few other things. The content of the post is primary and Likes are secondary to the content.
Not all changes are going to be received positively by all members. We do listen to feedback and thank-you for yours.
If the drop-down included a Thumbs Down or a Dislike or a Booooo button, I would use it for this quoted post.
To Don's point above, two things that were behind our motivation to change the like button are the fact that the like count now appears on mobile, which is the platform 75% of our guests visit the Community from. Secondly for those of us who are visual thinkers, the list of 'likes' now displays peoples' avatars in the list which for some, makes it far easier to recognize and identify the folks who have left a like.
I'm not sure what we can do about an expired media fire account, but what are the issues referenced above about a battery 101 sticky?
As to Graham's decision to leave the Community, all of us at IB have been in the dark until this thread. Graham never so much as offered anything to us and in fact we had recently been wondering if something bad had happened to him, so despite the fact it appears our fault he left the Community, at the same time I am pleased to learn it wasn't something worse that took place.
I am surprised to see posts by long standing members being described as spam.
I'm also surprised no one from IB was aware of what happened with Graham, perhaps whoever deleted the relevant posts may have had an inkling?
I'm not sure what we can do about an expired media fire account, but what are the issues referenced above about a battery 101 sticky?
If you don't understand dead links to important info (the very reason it's a Sticky), you have obviously not tried to access them via the pathway I listed in my post. Please note that I have also listed the pathway to the original files. What is so difficult to understand that you cut & paste that into a new Sticky that members can again access?
If you don't understand how frustrating it is for this info to be no longer available, then I really do give up!
Just sunk a Darwin Stubby with YOUR name on it mate.
These basement dwellers really have NO idea.
Like the Younguns that DO NOT know what a Grease Gun is, FACT.
Those that cannot "drive" (I use that word very loosely) without a TV screen telling then what to do or where to go. Try that crap with the Road Train, HAHAHA, come on down.
I understand this New Tech Rubbish, I dont like it, but age does that to us all, THEIR TIME WILL COME.Change is inevitable, and the fact my Mobile phone has a camera took me a good few beers to calm down, damn.
This Forum has been AWESOME, but the "controllers" that believe they know better, are destroying it.
I NEVER saw this stupid clutter they prattle on about with the old Like Tab (Was THANKS before that, must be a Bookface thing?), as it only listed about? 5 members, then stated ? more, which you could open up if wanted.
If you don't understand dead links to important info (the very reason it's a Sticky), you have obviously not tried to access them via the pathway I listed in my post. Please note that I have also listed the pathway to the original files. What is so difficult to understand that you cut & paste that into a new Sticky that members can again access?
If you don't understand how frustrating it is for this info to be no longer available, then I really do give up!
@cat_as_trophy Amen to that. I suggest that you change your Avatar to this one, which would more accurately reflect your screen name:
One tries to remain constructive, but pinching Cambo's avatar would be a step too far. LOL! Grant's antidote is commendable . . . but my liver is terrified of cirrhosis!
I'll settle for continuing to voice constructive criticism although, like you, Norri and others, I am disappointed if that critique is seen as spam.
As to the Battery 101 dead links, @Norri has been hard at work, and I acknowledge sincerely that he not only understands, but is trying to correct those 'dead end' issues.
At the same time, @Don B has captured how the Thanks button (an expression of gratitude) has degraded into a Likes button (no more than BookFace popularism). Like him, I worry at the diminishing ranks of our trusted gurus (like GGG) and am surprised that IB management can be so ignorant of reasons for these losses while chasing eyeballs.
