Ok so I'm back at the shop and she's in there right now. Haha the "ASE" certified alignment "tech" didn't seem to happy about realigning the Jag.

The manager said "well we did it to your specs", and I said "I only provided you specs for the front toe, nothing else, guy.". Lol, then they said well adjusting those new recommendations may mess the toe up a little, and I again reiterated, "get the front toe as close to 13 as possible", but get the camber right because it is favoring towards the right a hair. That guy should have known that if he is indeed a professional. Will post before and after specs again, and let's hope its perfect this time!

 

Bull27 - thanks for that pic (printed and filed; I like pics) and the tale so far!

 

the rear toe steers the car like a rudder on a boat. if not close to even it will scrub the tires (more wear, loss of mpg). if both rear tires point to the right, they will steer the car left, and visa versa. So I preffer them even(within a couple numbers is fine).
I like more toe in due to the fact that the road as you drive is trying to force out(toe out) the tires. What I recommend is what Ive found through experience over the years working on Jaguars (and alot of vehicles) that it gives the best tire wear, I dont like directional tires cause if you have a tire pull (more sever that a suspension drift) you can swap the tires side to side to counteract the affect. You have to brake down the tires and flip them on the rim and then move them. The reason I like alignments and recommend useing the machine as the tool it is and not the final answer for alignments. Is I service and look at the same customers cars month after month year after year. I know that if I did an alignment with new tires ( or rotated to get square rear tires up front)and a few months later they back for an oil change and I see irregular wear. I know 1 of 2 things. they hit something to knock out alignment...pothole, curb..or the tires dont like my previous alignment. (and I have pulled cars on the rack to check and adjust for free without saying anything to the customer, its about doing the right thing and learning, if what Im doing isnt doing what I thought it would I want to know it
This is how we discovered Stype had insufficient toe in. We set up to factory specs and wiped out the inside of the front tires. If I set them up with toe in set into the red (out of old spec for toe in) the tires no longer wore out the insides. That tells an intelligent person the specs are incorrect. This is why Jaguar changed them. I also have found that if you check the toe on the machine when your done, and push out on the insides of the front tires to watch where the toe goes. many times it goes dead ahead which is what it will do when driving. But many times it also goes into the red toe out. then I give it even more toe in, and this can be into the red. But the tires wear evenly. because I checked suspension deflection. all those tolerances "add up" ball joints, tie rods, bushings etc...
While there are many good alignment techs at independant shops, and dealers, you just have a more keenly aware tech of issues no matter where if they work on the same cars year after year day after day. Be it Jags, Mercedes, Toyotas, Fords etc...

 

good job! and thats exactly what I would have said. only the toe is changed(and they would be wise to change the specs in their machine and use them or they will align all stypes incorrectly thinking theyre right) yes the camber WILL change the toe, that why you set rear toe first, then caster/camber, and front toe last ( with the steering wheel locked or you will have an off center wheel)

 

So Brutal, does your STR toe-in recommendation work for our 3.0 S-Types as well? If not, how would you change it? I really want to get it right when I replace our S-Type's tires, probably by the end of 2010 if not a little sooner, and I trust your recommendation more than anyone else I've spoken with about it. You really know the science behind the scenes here, and a lot of techs don't think about that - they just go by the book....

Bull, what's all this alignment and re-alignment costing you?

 

I bet it's costing a lot less than the tires AND if right it will handle properly

Thanks Brutal. And for that fantastic battery tip!

 

its the same, same suspension. The only changes i would ever make would be is someone were to run a track day. Reduce caster for easier turning, crank camber negative to point the tire temps are even across the face after a good hard run. Then back to street specs after you have your fun....but this is a whole other issue.

 

Thanks, Brutal. We all await Bull's update on how his car handles after the additional alignment specs are changed today. Hopefully it will be right on the money....


Here's what I'm keeping in my Jaguar folder to give to the alignment guys the next time I have our S-Type aligned (probably at new tire-buying time):


Brutal's S-Type Alignment Specs

For both front wheels, the more toe-in towards +.13, the better. Combined front toe-in should be +.26.

Front negative camber should be as close to even as possible.

Set the rear toe first (by the shop machine's existing specs).

Next, set the caster and camber (by the shop machine's existing specs).

Last, set the front toe-in (to Brutal's specs above) with the steering wheel locked to keep it on-center.



If I've botched or missed anything, please chime in here....

 

Oh boy, things have certainly changed. I am on my Blackberry right now at a Dr's appointment but I will CERTAINLY post the picture of the new specs. Definately threw off the front toe, and it seems as though he didn't follow my directions with the front left camber. However, it is driving rather nicely. I think when he fixed the rear the way I (Brutal) told him to, it helped a lot.

PS this "professional tech" looked like he just rolled out of bed after a long night of tequila, strippers and narcotics. Haha very comforting. To be continued....

 

Nothing for re-alignment, just a nuisance. Same price as the invoice I posted earlier. They were running a special on full car alignment from 79 to 49 when you buy at least one tire.

 

I took the liberty of creating a word document with all the Jag Factory Alignment specs for our cars - USA ones highlighted, as well as all of the changes and points discussed here clearly outlined.

That way you can just print this and take it to the alignment shop. Personally I'd sit down with the tech, and explain exactly what I wanted. If he didn't get it and agree, I'd walk before getting the work done.

This is the 9/2009 Jag Vehicle Spec - Except for front toe which is set by Brutal due to his experience with the cars in the real world.

Feel free to edit - add to this as necessary and post revised versions. I make no claim to this this was all info found on this thread, just organized into a easier to read / compiled format.

Hope this helps,

George

 

Good work George. Here is the NEW alignment spec sheet that they gave me after I told them (and printed a 14pt font Word document just in case) to make the front camber even or more negative on the right. Also told them to bring right rear toe to 14, to match the left.



Seems to me the only thing this idiot did correct was to get the rear toe correct. NOW the total front toe is 14, not 26, and the front camber looks to be all F'd up to my eyes and completely opposite of what I told them to do.

The only reason why i brought it to them in the first place and not my normal tire guy is because it was close to where i got the flat, walking distance to my house, had an alignment special, and seemed to have all the up to date technology. Not to mention they are always JAMMED packed as opposed to NTB, Firestone etc., which I took as a good sign.

In closing, for SOME reason, even though the specs seem to be off from where we have been shooting for (to my eyes), it drives well. Seems more stable than the original alignment sheet posted earlier, and doesnt seem so "grabby", understeer? I cruised on the center lane (most level) of the highway and there was no veering left or right. While either being in the left lane / or right lane \, it seemed to push ever so slightly to that side respectively, obviously because of the grade of those particular lanes. However at this point I dont remember my car ever doing that or maybe i am just being WAY to paranoid and overly-critical. Who knows maybe that adjustment in the rear toe did the trick. I dont know, What are your thoughts?

I can either A) keep as is
B) cause a small riot at Town Fair Tire or
C) bring it to someone else.

 

I'd go with B) - The small riot.

The front toe is gonna chew up the insides of those front tires, that was the whole point of the revised Spec... and following Brutal's idea.

First of all. How ARE these before numbers so messed up, relative to when it left the shop with the previous#'s??

Your previous alignment sheet showed rear toe at. left .14 right .06.

HOW DOES THE CAR GO ON THE RACK AND GET TO .30 LEFT REAR TOE??

HOW DID THE CAR CORRECT THE FRONT CAMBER?? BUT MESS UP THE REAR CAMBER?

Print your two alignment sheets side by side. And tell them which one of these was bs, or which rack was bad? Were these done both on the SAME rack?

What your showing me is straight impossible here. There is no way for an alignment to change that much in the couple hrs you've had the car. Something doesn't add up. Heck the rear looks as bad as it did before it came in on the first before sheet!

Your car will drive nicely with the second set of "current" measurements. They were all within the original jag specs. BUT it will eat the insides of the front tires in short order.

George

 

I know, just realized that now that I am sitting down with both of them. Didn't have time to d*ck around with them this morning , had a meeting. Pissed.

 

This is from a previous post:

"Originally Posted by blaksplash
about a week ago i had a local shop put new rear tires on, 4 wheel alignment, front tires re-balanced, and the front rotors turned. A couple days later i put set of akebono euro ceramic pads on the front. The brakes are great, and the tires have great straight line grip but....

The handling is friggin horrible now. There is an on-ramp interchange with a sweeping turn that i used to love to fly around. But now on that same on-ramp the cat is having a hard time with it, dsc kicks in even with me going about 10mph slower. Previously i had never seen traction control kick in when hugging a turn even through some mountain twisties (unless i'm smashing the gas as well of course). Dsc is using the front brakes during the turn.

I had nitto 275/35/zr18's previously- and here is a link to the new riken raptor zr's i got

from reading this post is seems that the alignment shouldn't need as much toe out. The front tires do have more wear on the inside which is why i got the alignment.

Here's info from the printout from the shop:
Code:
===previous===tire camber caster toelf 0.0 7.1 -0.31rf -0.8 7.1 0.04front total toe -0.27front steer ahead -0.17tire camber toelr -0.9 0.34rr -0.9 0.22rear total toe 0.55rear thrust angle 0.06===current===tire camber caster toelf 0.0 7.1 -0.08rf -0.8 7.1 -0.10front total toe -0.18front steer ahead 0.01tire camber toelr -0.9 0.15rr -0.9 0.11rear total toe 0.27rear thrust angle 0.02
is it the cheapo tires or the alignment? If i wanted to float all over the road, i'd drive my wife's suv
this is a primary example of a shop that is not using the correct specs. This alignment will continue to wear the inside of the front tires. This is why i tell people to go to the dealer, otherwise you get incorrect specs used. Jaguar changed the specs years ago for front toe. Even if they didnt, jags do not like toe out which is what you have.
I would have set total toe to +.20 the spec is -.03-+.30
total toe is -.07-+.27
as you can see. There is almost no toe out. I like to bring them in more and push out (before im happy) on the insides of the front tires to check suspension deflection. Many cars when checking this then require spec to go into the red for toe in...like +.30 to +.40! It is not uncommon, but you have to check the car youre working on to know.
But i think your issue is more tires. But check pressure first, ive seen people seat tire beads and never let out the 50-60 pri sometimes neccesary to seat beads. Also new tires are greasy which is why nascar/indy/cart etc.. Drivers smoke the tires coming out of the pits...to build heat, and to "clean" the tire from manufacturing oils. But you need same tires front and rear. Especially since you want to push the car hard. If you have dunlops up front theyre a great tire. The race drivers that jaguar hired for ride n drives of the new 5.litre xf and xk said the cars with dunlop sport maxxes handled alot better than the pirellis or michelins, and this was both the normally aspirated and sc models on a road course. They drove these cars like they were race cars...matter of fact all 3 of the drivers said the cars handled better than some of the race cars theyde raced in years past "


Right now my front toe is still TOE IN L .9 R .5, for a total of +.14. Blaksplash had a TOTAL TOE OUT of -.18 after his alignment. The insides of my tires are still going to get eaten?

Regardless, I will be sending both of my printouts to corporate headquarters, because the manager there has as much intelligence as my left toe (haha get it).

I know horrible joke and not funny whatsever.

 

Just wondering which Pyle did your alignments - Gomer or Goober?

 

Just this fired this off to corporate:

Could you please have a manager contact me via email me as soon as possible. I need to upload and attach some alignment printouts your technician gave to me in the Quincy, MA branch. He did not follow directions whatsoever when provided a spec sheet given to me by a Jaguar master technician, and I believe one of the printouts is completely fake. I had my car aligned yesterday, was not up to spec, as requested, went back in there today to have him adjust front camber, and rear toe, which was off. After some moaning and groaning about re-aligning the vehicle again, he did the exact opposite thing I asked him to do. After today's "re-alignment", the printout they gave me in the "before measurements" were SO FAR OFF from yesterday's "Current Measurements" that tells me that it was either fake, done improperly, or not done at all. I literally drove 2 miles between yesterday and today and the measurements between yesterday afternoon and this morning looks like I was rear ended. Thats how off they were. Not too mention, when they put on my 275/35/18 rear tire, they completely took most of the paint off of the outer edge of the rim, and even put some nice nicks on the rim itself. They are fresh. I would appreciate an email so i can provide you evidence of what I am talking about and would rather deal directly with corporate for I have no faith in the Quincy, MA branch at this time. Thank You for your assitance in this matter. -Joseph

 

Don't rely on e-mail. Call the corporate office. Phone calls get far more attention than e-mails....

 

I'll follow up with a phone call tomorrow. I do need a specific person's email over there to send these as attachments, faxing wont do.

 

Yes. Your tires will still get eaten. Not enough toe in.

Look at my original spec for the Jag S-type (which i believe speced a toe of + 20). Which was proven to eat tires. The car as it goes down the road wants to push the tires outward. The point of the toe adjustment, is to compensate for this, and make the tire ride flat as far as the cross section. Not enough toe in (positive toe), the car's weight rides on the inside of the tires - they push past straight, too much toe out, and you have front tires that are way past straight, further eating the inside edge. You are trying to find the combination that leads to the tire going as straight down the road as possible.

The other alignment you are comparing to will lead to a car that feels erratic. The tire is pushed out, then the road pushes it out further, and you add the suspension and try to take a corner, and you're riding on front tires that are trying to take the car in two different directions. Toe in, (not corrected by the load of the road) makes both wheels want to push the car toward the center line, as long as the difference isn't substantial between the two sides, it basically gives the car the tendency to want to go straight.. so it just dampens steering input, Basically under load you are trying to get the wheels to go straight. Physics is trying to push them apart from each other. You want them in when stationary, so they end up straight under load. You don't want them out, which the road further enhances.

I know this isn't the best example but picture a shopping cart here. When the wheels are facing inward, as you push it, they straighten out but there is no resistance to get them straight (erratic driving effects). When the one wheel is at 10 O'clock and the other is at 2 O'Clock, Toed out - the cart jerks until the wheels find the proper orientation. That's why toed out handles so much worse than toed in.

George

George