Anyone know what can cause this?! I wanted to record it starting because it didn’t want to turn over yesterday (starter sounds fine, just didn’t start) so I asked my mom to record, I was told it could be a fuel pump issue and that turning the key half way starts the fuel pump so I did that twice, and then I started it, it started first try but it sounds absolutely horrible, I drove the car to work anyway. As soon as the video ends the sound goes away, no check engine light, car drives absolutely fine there’s no way you could tell that’s how it started. I’m starting to get worried.

 

Begin with the basics. Use a voltmeter to determine the available voltage with the ignition in the OFF position for at least thirty minutes. Connect the voltmeter to the battery terminals; there should be a minimum of 12.6 volts indicated on the voltmeter. If not, charge the battery for five hours at 2 to 5 amps and retest. If there is still less than 12.6 volts showing on the voltmeter, the battery is suspect and should be replaced.

If the available voltage is correct, use a smart phone with the Torque app to connect to the ECM/PCM via the OBD port using a Bluetooth interface. Check to see what the fuel pressure is at start up. It should be around 300 kPa. If not, the fuel pump may be failing.

 

I had other issues that I was told could be related to battery, but how does a battery cause the engine to make this noise?? I’m new to cars and don’t understand. Also when the battery sits overnight it drops to around 12.32.

 

If the fuel pump isn't generating enough pressure during cold start up, it can cause the engine to run rough like in your video.

 

Before guessing and replacing parts, it's always a good practice to perform basic tests to eliminate low voltage as the cause. Guessing on a Jaguar can get very expensive very fast.

 

First thank you for the stuff about the battery, I’m trying to stay calm because I can’t afford a 2000$ fuel pump replacement. For the fuel test, can you give me a rundown of what I need to perform it? I know you said that app but how does the app connect to the obd port? Do you have a link for the app as well? And for whatever it needs to connect to the obd port. Thanks

 

I am not too sure about the noise I am hearing there. It would be better, if you try to locate the source of the noise first (and it would NOT be somewhere a few meters behind the car, from where you are recording). So the noise comes from the engine, hence, open the hood (bonnet) and use a "mechanics statoscope"... That is a big screwdriver, hold the metal end to the place, where you think the noise comes from and hold the plastic grip to your ear - and have someone start the car.

I had a noise once on my X308 (XJ8) once: I thought it's coming from the timing chain area, hence I replace all those tensioners and guides and the timing chain - well, it was a good thing to do all that anyway, but that wasn't (in my case) what was making that noise during the first 10 seconds after startup... It was one of the catalysts: The inner honeycomb in one of the 2 catalysts was totally loose. I replaced both catalysts.

 

You said first 10 seconds, which is literally exactly how long the rattling lasted. How did you figure out that was the problem? Also is it safe to drive like that, also did it cause check engine in your scenario?

 

I use a Rubber Mallet,

Lay on the ground, reach under, and CAREFULLY smack each Cat. The rattle will be clear as crystal.

Battery integrity in these "modern" cars is critical to all sorts of modules etc. Fully charged is what it must be, and near enough will cause all sorts of issues sooner or later.

If short running, casual use is what you have, bet a Battery Minder, and plug it in often. I have 4 of them Minding all my cars at all times. I call it "Playing Tesla", NAH, I am OLD and rarely drive, so common sense kickes in. Last battery I needed was 5 years ago, so the Minders are well paid for.

 

> You said first 10 seconds, which is literally exactly how long the rattling lasted.
Yes, I think max. 10 min. Before I knew that this was MY problem, I could not have imagined that, coz we would it stop rattling after a few seconds - but it did.
After removing the catalyst I could have used it as a rattle (musical instrument)...

> How did you figure out that was the problem?
As I described above...:
>>> ...use a "mechanics statoscope"... That is a big screwdriver, hold the metal end to the place, where you think the noise comes from and hold the
>>> plastic grip to your ear - and have someone start the car.

> Also is it safe to drive like that, also did it cause check engine in your scenario?
1. Can't remember about the CEL.
2. If you have the same issue... - I can't say, if that's save - maybe / maybe not.
3. But No. 2 is irrelevant, as you do not know yet, if you have the same issue...

 

If you have a smart phone, download and install the Torque app. Purchase a Bluetooth interface such as this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/37436104553...BlBMUMTehaGeZw

Connect the Bluetooth device to the OBD port under the LH side of the dash/fascia and open the app. Turn on Bluetooth and pair your smart phone with the device, then choose the Bluetooth device in the settings area of the Torque app. You can choose functions to display on the app, one of them being fuel pressure.

 

In case you use Apple, I think you'll need a WiFi elm327

 

Any updates? Waiting on pins and needles here...

Please be aware online troubleshooting can be a slow and drawn out process. You'll post some observations, we ask a boatload of questions, and then await your response. Rinse and repeat.

One key bit of unsolicited advice, in the immortal words of Douglas Adams:

Don't panic!


Not to pick on you, but you had previously mentioned possibly needing a fuel pump. That's not an unreasonable guess, except for the $2000 cost. Yikes!!! Who was quoting you that? The electric pump is part of a module that also includes the fuel level sender. It's possible to replace just the failed pump, maybe a couple hundred at most IIRC. I would suggest not getting car repair advice from PleaseRipMeOff.com.

Anyways, we still have no clue if the pump is at fault. Still waiting to hear what parameters are shown on your new scanner.

One YUGE consideration: Will you be doing any repairs and upkeep yourself? Or will you be paying a shop to do so? If the latter, are you independently wealthy? Any 20 year old car will drain your wallet if relying on others to do the work.

Back to the present situation, I see three issues in need of resolution:

1) The noise and rough running. Still awaiting your response on the various suggestions. Do the noise and rough running happen at the same time? Or have they happened separately? Maybe it's actually two separate issues, which coincidentally can happen at the same time, and perhaps more likely on a cold start.

At the very minimum, I'd suggest replacing the fuel filter as previously suggested. Is that the root cause? Heck if I know, but sometimes you just have to chip away at likely possibilities and see what happens. If nothing else, replacing the fuel filter is part of routine maintenance, so I don't feel bad at all if it doesn't help.

2) Unknown battery condition. If unsure, and money is an issue, there are two good methods for troubleshooting. Run the engine for a bit (we've already established the charging system is working properly) to help top off the battery. Shut off the engine and then restart. See if having a topped-off battery helps. Or you can do the same thing by hooking up a battery charger overnight. Either method is simple and free.

3) Water in the trunk: This one is twofold. You'll need to stop the water getting in, typically by replacing the trunk lid seal. Then you'll need to thoroughly dry the trunk. Hopefully no damage was done to any of the electronic modules back there.

 

Another drive-by? Sigh...

 

the 2000 included the whole fuel pump assembly, which is why it was so expensive.

I plan to do upkeep by myself (oil changes at least) but the rest of the stuff is gonna be difficult because as I mentioned I’m 16 and have 0 experience working on cars. The good news is the original shop i took it to said they would take a look for free.

the Noise only happens the first few seconds on startup, the rough idle happens when I’m in park for more than 3-4 minutes, the rpm’s bounce around a little bit (550-700 ish) causing the car to vibrate. The car has also coincidently started better on cold starts most of time. Whatever the issue is is almost guaranteed to not be caused by heat, cold, or how long it has sat.

For the fuel filter, what issues would that fix? I’m not sure what it does or where it is located so any info is appreciated, however I found a fuel filter box and a fuel filter in the spare tire area when I was looking at the battery. But I don’t know if it’s used.

I also don’t think it’s the battery, I got home from school and went to leave to go to work 10 minutes later and it took 3 times to get the car to start again.

I have also not purchased a scanner because the one that was sent to me was for an android and all of the ones on Amazon have super bad reviews..

 

back to basics... when was the last time the car had sparkplugs. It sounds like it just isn't firing on a cylinder. after long periods of sitting in traffic stationary, I"d be looking for a heat sensitive coil (a coil that stops working with lots of heat soak under hte bonnet).

Rough running when cars first start is usually the cold start system flooding them slightly. It shouldn't happen with a modern car like the S type. My old range rover can almost flood itself when I start it on some cold days. I probably should look into that some day .... given it only happens for a few seconds and I can just clear it with a few revs .... I haven't been rushed to look at it .... I'll get to it oneday (its only been about 10 years I've been avoiding it).

 

Yeah, but you have something I don't have: Youthful optimism. Haven't had that for decades.


Had another thought. Perhaps one (or more) of the fuel injectors is leaking. Not sure of the best method to troubleshoot that, but there must be some good method.

When the engine doesn't start, does the starter cranking speed seem higher than normal? If so, that could be from a leaking fuel injector letting excess fuel into a cylinder. This washes away the oil on the cylinder wall, decreasing compression. In response, due to less load on the starter, it can spin faster. The excess fuel can also foul the spark plug, causing a double whammy of (temporary) low compression and poor ignition. Now don't just rush out and replace the injectors, but keep this in mind as a possible cause.

When the engine won't start, how long are you cranking the starter? Normally an engine should start quickly, so I don't advise grinding and grinding on the poor starter. However, there is one scenario when you should try this. If the crankshaft position sensor (CKP) has failed, the poor computer doesn't know which spark plug to fire next. The fuel pump is inhibited so the engine won't start. This is where you really need a scanner to read the fuel pressure to be sure. Curiously, it won't always set a fault code, as this is a starting problem and not necessarily related to emissions. (See my previous comments about the DMV Principle, i.e. standing in the wrong line.) If the CKP sensor is not sending a valid signal, after 5 seconds of cranking, the system reverts to using the camshaft sensors as a backup input and the engine will now start. As always, don't rush out and replace the CKP sensor on a whim, but do keep this in mind. Maybe you'd been cranking the starter for 4.9 seconds max, so the system never went to backup mode.




No guarantee a new filter would fix anything. However, it's just basic preventive maintenance. Might help, might not make a difference, but still worth trying.

The fuel filter is located inside the fender liner, aft of the front left tire.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...deo-faq-40686/




Definitely gonna need a scanner. Let us know what codes you find.

 

If your interested in scanners you should check the long running on which scanners work the best for Jaguars,
Jaguar Scanners

Now one thing to understand is the scanner market is changing all the time. So there is no "best" scanner outside of the JLR SDD system. Plus all of us end up with multiple scanners eventually because one does one thing better than the other scanner.
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I know you said crankshaft position sensor, but the previous owner told me it needed a camshaft position sensor, I’m told they do similar-ish things? I tried as you said holding the starter longer and it has started every time, but every time it doesn’t start in the first 1.5ish seconds it starts really weird like it’s gasping for air like in the original video I sent when I started the thread.
Previous owner also never told me why he thought it needed that sensor just said it needed it and I went off on my stupid way lol…

 

Making some progress, but I'm having a little trouble reading your mind. I've even (temporarily) removed my tin foil hat in hopes of a stronger signal, but no joy so far.

In lieu of actually reading your mind, can you please elaborate on "holding the starter longer and it has started every time"? I know you know all the seemingly minor details, but I'm in the dark for now.

For troubleshooting, ideally you'd be able to duplicate the no-start condition. Under normal conditions, the engine should start with only 1 or 2 seconds on the starter. But when it won't start quickly like that, keep turning the starter. If the fault is with the CKP circuit, once you pass the 5 second mark, the engine should roar to life. Cranking more than 5 seconds is NOT a normal procedure. It's a failsafe backup to get you home for repairs.

So is that what you've observed? The engine won't start unless you engage the starter for more than 5 seconds? If so, the CKP circuit is the likely culprit.

Or are you saying you're just cranking the starter that long every time now, even though the engine is running on its own before that? I THINK you mean the former, but want to be positive.

As far as the suspect cam sensor(s), I do not know if a failure there will behave like the CKP sensor. Might be, don't really know. Will have to do a little research tomorrow.

The rough running after engine start? That might be a separate problem, who knows. Might be worthwhile to concentrate on the hard-start / no-start problem first. With any luck, that may clear up once the first problem is solved.