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Chasing that 0171/0174 code

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Old 12-29-2015, 03:05 PM
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Default Chasing that 0171/0174 code

So I have a 2003 x type with 132,000 miles. Sometimes during acceleration, typically between 35-45 mph, the car will shutter followed by a no cruise control message and amber engine light. Took to Autozone and codes 0105, 0171 and 0174 showed up. I have done the following to try and find a vacuum leak:

1. PCV ribbed hose- was installed before I got the car. I have ran my hands over the tube checking for any leaks but do not feel any or see any.
2. IMT valve o-rings- checked upper and saw a green o-ring. Did not check bottom, assume it was changed to.
3. Brake booster hose- replaced yesterday. Did not replace plastic ring going into manifold or rubber grommet outside break booster.
4. Ribbed accordion tubing between air filter and throttle body- took off and visually inspected, slightly stretching to check creases. Found no tears. Will replace clamp (someone used zip tie) when part arrives.
5. PCV valve- will replace when part comes in.
The Mass air flow sensor has been replaced with one from the parts store and the full pump and filter was replaced shortly after I got it as well as the coolant reservoir. The before mentioned shuttering was occurring before the full pump change.

So I have 2 questions....
1. Should I have replaced the ring and grommet when I replaced the brake booster hose?
2. Should I check the bottom IMT valve or can it cause a new problem because I did not replace the green o-rings?

I am thinking my next step would be to clear the codes and see if they reoccur after driving. Then I may possibly need to look at the manifold because the previous owner said he changed the spark plugs and wires? but not any gaskets. I am just trying to do and rule out as much as I can myself.

Any advice and thoughts will be appreciated. I can use all the help I can get.
 
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Old 12-29-2015, 03:27 PM
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Welcome to the forum, Lizzy. There are a lot of friendly and helpful people here always willing to help. X-Types have been around a long time, so pretty much anything that can happen to them have been discussed here. Sounds like you have already done some surfing around.

As for your problem, did the codes come up after you did all those things to find the vacuum leak or did you inspect/replace the parts you listed because of the codes? If it the latter they might be old stored codes and not indicative of your current situation.

My two cents on the IMT o-rings is they are so easy to replace and so inexpensive to buy you might as just well change them. Don't assume the previous owner changed the bottom o-ring. That one is a little harder to get out and maybe he just left it. Probably not, but you never know.

As for the brake booster hose, You do know change the plastic ring. You just push down on that to release the. If you did anything other than that you might have damaged it. I'm also not quite sure I understand about the rubber grommet. That should come with the hose.

Might not be a bad idea to change the intake upper and lower gaskets. The car is 12 years old and if they were never changed probably long over due. Maybe take it somewhere and have them do a leak test or search on here as there are a number of posts related to doing that.

From the sounds of it your problems are probably easy to fix and not that expensive. Hang in there.
 
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Old 12-29-2015, 05:37 PM
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I am going through similar problems with mine.
Let's try a couple of tips before you buy your way out of the problem:
Remove intake manifold for back spark plugs
Check all spark plugs for oil or unusual damage (you can get pictures online for how they should look)

Report back on the results and we can either rule those out or find an issue, either way it's progress.
 
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Old 12-29-2015, 06:27 PM
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The codes came up before I did all those things. After reading on this forum I decided those were the top 5 things to look at and things I could do myself.


As for the plastic ring in the manifold I read a lot of people had trouble with them breaking off when trying to remove the hose so that's why I assumed it was suppose to stay in and didn't try to remove it from the manifold. I read to push down on the ring and slide out to the pipe. I did and the pipe came out very easily. The new part (C2S17552 - BRAKE BOOSTER VACUUM HOSE WITH CHECK VALVE) looked exactly like the same part I removed. I will have to find the part number for the plastic ring that goes down into the manifold.


As for the rubber piece it looked like it had a good seal so I left it. If it needs changing I will have to find the part number for that too.


I will go ahead and change the o-rings so it's ruled out. Then I'll go from there.
 
Attached Thumbnails Chasing that 0171/0174 code-win_20151229_175631.jpg   Chasing that 0171/0174 code-win_20151229_175351.jpg   Chasing that 0171/0174 code-win_20151229_175347.jpg   Chasing that 0171/0174 code-wp_20151228_15_44_29_pro.jpg  

Last edited by Lizzy; 12-29-2015 at 06:32 PM. Reason: wasn't finished
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Old 12-29-2015, 07:46 PM
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You stated the codes came up and then you did the changes. Have you cleared the codes and driven thru the cycles and had the codes return. The codes must be cleared by the OBD scanner they want clear themselves.
Let us no they have been cleared and returned.
 
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Old 12-31-2015, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by avern1
You stated the codes came up and then you did the changes. Have you cleared the codes and driven thru the cycles and had the codes return. The codes must be cleared by the OBD scanner they want clear themselves.
Let us no they have been cleared and returned.

The codes got cleared this afternoon and in less than 20 minutes the check engine light and no cruise control message were on. I do not have a scanner-yet- but I am sure it is the same codes. I will get them read again in the morning.

What should my next step be if it shows the same codes?
 
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Old 01-01-2016, 09:25 AM
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I think before you start replacing everything we need to diagnose the actual problem (vacuum leak, MAF sensor, etc.) so your next steps should be:

Get a smoke test done (or do the spray around the engine to get rough idle, but this is risky and can cause a fire...)
Get the long term fuel trims at idle and at 2500 revs from a code reader and report back so we can diagnose.
 
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  #8  
Old 01-02-2016, 03:53 PM
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Default Update w/ fuel trim and pics from smoke test

Originally Posted by Alfadude
Welcome to the forum, Lizzy. There are a lot of friendly and helpful people here always willing to help. X-Types have been around a long time, so pretty much anything that can happen to them have been discussed here. Sounds like you have already done some surfing around.

As for your problem, did the codes come up after you did all those things to find the vacuum leak or did you inspect/replace the parts you listed because of the codes? If it the latter they might be old stored codes and not indicative of your current situation.

My two cents on the IMT o-rings is they are so easy to replace and so inexpensive to buy you might as just well change them. Don't assume the previous owner changed the bottom o-ring. That one is a little harder to get out and maybe he just left it. Probably not, but you never know.

As for the brake booster hose, You do know change the plastic ring. You just push down on that to release the. If you did anything other than that you might have damaged it. I'm also not quite sure I understand about the rubber grommet. That should come with the hose.

Might not be a bad idea to change the intake upper and lower gaskets. The car is 12 years old and if they were never changed probably long over due. Maybe take it somewhere and have them do a leak test or search on here as there are a number of posts related to doing that.

From the sounds of it your problems are probably easy to fix and not that expensive. Hang in there.
So I got fuel trim data at idling and 2500 rpm.


I also made a DIY smoke tester using the old brake booster hose I replaced and it showed 2 leaks.

The first leak was coming from underneath the left side (when looking from the front of the hood) of a sensor on the throttle body.

The second leak seemed to be coming from the left side (when looking from the front of the hood) of the manifold at the very, very bottom- way below the first bolt in the front.

It took a while to get the smoke to escape from the leaks but these are all we found. So what should my plan be now? Is there anymore testing or should I start looking at repairs?
 
Attached Thumbnails Chasing that 0171/0174 code-idle2500.jpg   Chasing that 0171/0174 code-wp_20160102_12_41_22_pro.jpg   Chasing that 0171/0174 code-wp_20160102_12_40_35_pro.jpg  
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Old 01-03-2016, 01:58 AM
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Lizzy: Kudo's for methodically tracking down the vacuum leak, and for first ruling out or fixing the common vacuum leaks.

Alfadude gave good advice re: the fuel trims and smoke test. They're pointing to leaks in the intake manifold gaskets, and maybe the throttle body, but not the brake booster vacuum line or grommet.

The lean error codes on P0171 (bank 1) & P0174 (bank 2) are caused by either excess air or insufficient fuel. Excess air almost always is a vacuum leak, which is what you have. Insufficient fuel is usually low fuel pressure or clogged fuel injectors, which is not your problem.

How do we know you have a vacuum leak, even without the smoke test results? By comparing the long term fuel trim at idle and highway RPMs:
+ At 700 RPM, the long term fuel trims are 19.5% on bank 1 (LT FLTRM1) and 18% on bank 2 (LT FLTRM2), meaning ~19% extra fuel is being added by the fuel injectors to compensate for extra air seeping in thru the vacuum leak. That much extra fuel is usually a vacuum leak, but not always.
+ At 2,500 RPM, the long term fuel trims drop to ~2% because the engine 'breathes' ~4 times more air at highway speeds vs. idle, which dilutes the vacuum leak, so only ~2% extra fuel is needed to compensate. This confirms your lean condition is caused by a vacuum leak and too much air, and not by insufficient fuel.

The smoke test indicates the air is leaking passed the intake manifold gaskets, and maybe the throttle body as well. You say the former owner changed the sparkplugs, but not the gaskets. That's a shame, since they removed the intake manifold to change the firewall sparkplugs, and the extra effort and cost is small to replace change the intake gaskets.

I'd replace the intake gaskets, upper (e.g., Fel-Pro MS96494) and lower (e.g., Fel-Pro MS 96485). One caveat: Let the engine cool before removing the manifold because the lower manifold (aka the fuel injector plenum) has brass inserts which can break loose if torqued while the engine is still hot. Also, take care not to over-tighten these small bolts during reassembly. The spec on several small bolts is only ~7 ft-lbs, i.e., hand-tight. See the JTIS for all the torque specs - a downloadable pdf is on the "How To" page.

I'm less familiar with how to check for and fix a possible vacuum leak in the throttle body. Someone here will hopefully share their insights, since you will remove the throttle body prior to removing the intake manifold. Or you may find a existing thread on this topic. I just haven't had to deal with leaks in the throttle body (yet ). Another caveat: The electrical connector at the front, bottom of the throttle body can become brittle with heat and age. It's fine until you unplug the connector. If it falls apart, some people epoxy it, other's replace it. So be careful when unplugging it.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
 
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Old 01-03-2016, 05:03 PM
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The smoke leak at the throttle body I had also, but was not my issue, never fixed and I am running code free. Dirty MAF was my issue.
Thought I would mention that so you do not get distracted by it, problem is probably somewhere else.

I would invest $50 into the two manifold gasket sets and that remaining IMT o-ring.
 
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Old 01-03-2016, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dwclapp
Lizzy: Kudo's for methodically tracking down the vacuum leak, and for first ruling out or fixing the common vacuum leaks.

Alfadude gave good advice re: the fuel trims and smoke test. They're pointing to leaks in the intake manifold gaskets, and maybe the throttle body, but not the brake booster vacuum line or grommet.

The lean error codes on P0171 (bank 1) & P0174 (bank 2) are caused by either excess air or insufficient fuel. Excess air almost always is a vacuum leak, which is what you have. Insufficient fuel is usually low fuel pressure or clogged fuel injectors, which is not your problem.

How do we know you have a vacuum leak, even without the smoke test results? By comparing the long term fuel trim at idle and highway RPMs:
+ At 700 RPM, the long term fuel trims are 19.5% on bank 1 (LT FLTRM1) and 18% on bank 2 (LT FLTRM2), meaning ~19% extra fuel is being added by the fuel injectors to compensate for extra air seeping in thru the vacuum leak. That much extra fuel is usually a vacuum leak, but not always.
+ At 2,500 RPM, the long term fuel trims drop to ~2% because the engine 'breathes' ~4 times more air at highway speeds vs. idle, which dilutes the vacuum leak, so only ~2% extra fuel is needed to compensate. This confirms your lean condition is caused by a vacuum leak and too much air, and not by insufficient fuel.

The smoke test indicates the air is leaking passed the intake manifold gaskets, and maybe the throttle body as well. You say the former owner changed the sparkplugs, but not the gaskets. That's a shame, since they removed the intake manifold to change the firewall sparkplugs, and the extra effort and cost is small to replace change the intake gaskets.

I'd replace the intake gaskets, upper (e.g., Fel-Pro MS96494) and lower (e.g., Fel-Pro MS 96485). One caveat: Let the engine cool before removing the manifold because the lower manifold (aka the fuel injector plenum) has brass inserts which can break loose if torqued while the engine is still hot. Also, take care not to over-tighten these small bolts during reassembly. The spec on several small bolts is only ~7 ft-lbs, i.e., hand-tight. See the JTIS for all the torque specs - a downloadable pdf is on the "How To" page.

I'm less familiar with how to check for and fix a possible vacuum leak in the throttle body. Someone here will hopefully share their insights, since you will remove the throttle body prior to removing the intake manifold. Or you may find a existing thread on this topic. I just haven't had to deal with leaks in the throttle body (yet ). Another caveat: The electrical connector at the front, bottom of the throttle body can become brittle with heat and age. It's fine until you unplug the connector. If it falls apart, some people epoxy it, other's replace it. So be careful when unplugging it.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
I will be replacing the intake gaskets as you suggested. While the manifold is apart should I replace anything else I? Like other gaskets, spark plugs, etc. I figure the few extra dollars are worth the trouble of not having to do it all again later.
 
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Old 01-03-2016, 05:30 PM
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Default Glad to hear

Originally Posted by innzane
The smoke leak at the throttle body I had also, but was not my issue, never fixed and I am running code free. Dirty MAF was my issue.
Thought I would mention that so you do not get distracted by it, problem is probably somewhere else.

I would invest $50 into the two manifold gasket sets and that remaining IMT o-ring.

Thanks for letting me know.
 
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Old 01-03-2016, 05:52 PM
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The throttle body has a square shaped o-ring gasket where it mounts to the intake. I think there is either a gasket or o-ring that seals the connector housing to the throttle body.
I have only found Jaguar OEM for the throttle body to manifold ring.
While you have the manifold off and access to the firewall side I would clean all of the plug/connectors for the coil packs and any connectors not easily accessible.
 
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:58 AM
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Lizzy: Good question. While the intake manifold is removed from the engine, a few maintenance items to check:

1) Lower IMT o-ring: You say the top o-ring is green, but you haven't checked the bottom o-ring. Check it when the intake is off the engine. As Alfadude said, the lower o-ring can be replaced when the intake is on the engine, but it's a little easier when the intake is off the engine.

2) Oil in the sparkplug wells. You say the former owner changed the sparkplugs, so they should be good for ~100K miles. If engine oil had leaked into the sparkplug wells, the former owner probably cleaned that up when they changed the sparkplugs. But did they replace the valve cover gaskets? Check again for oil by the sparkplugs when you remove the intake manifold. If you find oil in the wells, clean it up and replace both valve cover gaskets #3, shown in this post by clyons: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...2/#post1373639

3) Inspect the coil boots: If they're coated with oil, clean them with isopropyl alcohol. If any boots are damaged, consider replacing those coils, or at least move the 'best' coils to the firewall side (bank 1) and the 'worst' to the radiator side (bank 2), where you can replace them in the future without removing the intake. Cylinder #2, on the radiator side, farthest from the battery, is the easiest coil to replace, so put the 'worst' coil here.

4) Upstream firewall oxygen sensor: Did the former owner replaced the upstream oxygen sensor (sensor 1) on the firewall side (bank 1)? The upstream sensors have a heating element that tends to burn out at ~100K miles, give or take, triggering the check engine light until replaced. If you have original oxygen sensors with ~132K miles, consider replacing the upstream firewall sensor when you take the intake manifold off the engine. It's not necessary to remove the intake to replace this sensor, but it is easier to access when the intake is removed. I would not change the upstream oxygen sensor on the radiator side until it fails (sensor 1, bank 2), because this sensor is easier to access. Same for the two downstream oxygen sensors (sensor 2, bank 1 & 2), which last longer than the upstream sensors.

There are many posts of these 4 topics, because they are common issues in our high mileage X-Types. Ask if you have questions, and we'll help you thru them.
 
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dwclapp
Lizzy: Good question. While the intake manifold is removed from the engine, a few maintenance items to check:

1) Lower IMT o-ring: You say the top o-ring is green, but you haven't checked the bottom o-ring. Check it when the intake is off the engine. As Alfadude said, the lower o-ring can be replaced when the intake is on the engine, but it's a little easier when the intake is off the engine.

2) Oil in the sparkplug wells. You say the former owner changed the sparkplugs, so they should be good for ~100K miles. If engine oil had leaked into the sparkplug wells, the former owner probably cleaned that up when they changed the sparkplugs. But did they replace the valve cover gaskets? Check again for oil by the sparkplugs when you remove the intake manifold. If you find oil in the wells, clean it up and replace both valve cover gaskets #3, shown in this post by clyons: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...2/#post1373639

3) Inspect the coil boots: If they're coated with oil, clean them with isopropyl alcohol. If any boots are damaged, consider replacing those coils, or at least move the 'best' coils to the firewall side (bank 1) and the 'worst' to the radiator side (bank 2), where you can replace them in the future without removing the intake. Cylinder #2, on the radiator side, farthest from the battery, is the easiest coil to replace, so put the 'worst' coil here.

4) Upstream firewall oxygen sensor: Did the former owner replaced the upstream oxygen sensor (sensor 1) on the firewall side (bank 1)? The upstream sensors have a heating element that tends to burn out at ~100K miles, give or take, triggering the check engine light until replaced. If you have original oxygen sensors with ~132K miles, consider replacing the upstream firewall sensor when you take the intake manifold off the engine. It's not necessary to remove the intake to replace this sensor, but it is easier to access when the intake is removed. I would not change the upstream oxygen sensor on the radiator side until it fails (sensor 1, bank 2), because this sensor is easier to access. Same for the two downstream oxygen sensors (sensor 2, bank 1 & 2), which last longer than the upstream sensors.

There are many posts of these 4 topics, because they are common issues in our high mileage X-Types. Ask if you have questions, and we'll help you thru them.
I would call the seller and call him a B.S'er as the x type doesn't have "plugs and wires"... Only plugs and coils.
 
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