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P035*, P1367, but looks like not the ECU!

 
  #1  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:37 AM
cly
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Default P035*, P1367, but looks like not the ECU!

Hi All,

I am a new member here, just wrote the entry in new users thread
But as a reader I am here since I own my fantastic Jaguar X-Type 2.5L benzin 2003 model!
I always found finished solutions here to any of my problems accordign to my car.
But now I feel I have something new thatswhy I was registering and asking myself now

I got "cruise not avaiable" message, yellow lamp and motor lamp, and ignition problems in seconds.
The error codes were P0351, P0353, P0355 (not always, but mostly the all) and P1367 (I think only when all 1,3,5 errors were here).

***
It happens only at warm motor, around 1/3 or above of the scale of temp gauge. If I try to keep rpm above 2-3k it wont happen.
But if I let the rpm down (warm motor) the problem shows in seconds. If I try to boost rpm at the moment of signs show up the problem sometimes goes away.
In those cases the yellow lamp and the cruise control goes away too. But this is rare.
Cold motor looks like always starting up normally and seems working well until it warms up.
***

I punched into forum search and found the solution: replace ignition coil. Done at local service point (spark plug was checked and replaced too, distances checked too). No changes.
I searched again and found cabling problems. This one wasnt tried but because the motor starts and works until gets warm I thought it cannot be the reason.
I searched again and found pressure problems. Servicemen measured, found okay.
I searched again and found ECU problem about leaking capacitors. I get out the ECU of the car, found no signs of leaking inside (actually looked like a brand new medical instrument) but to be sure replaced all the electrolytic caps (only those) with a big fear I am just killing the brain of my car. It wasnt killed but the problem is the same.
I downloaded and read service manual about those errors and there is no other steps there (minus the cabling and the real replacement of ECU).
I searched again and found some info about vacuum hoses, accumulator and fuel pump/filter. Those were not tried yet.

I feel the symptoms between ***s above are news and make this question different to the usual P1367s.

Now I have appointment in Jaguar service next week. I am afraid they will do the same rounds (following service manual) and me to buy a new ECU which will costs more than the car itself
So before I go to them I hope somebody can help me here with some advise.

Thanks&Regards
Sandor
 
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Old 06-25-2019, 03:46 AM
cly
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Just forgot something:
I was reading error codes with Torque Lite Android app.
Dont know whether it matters or not but I attached the values read when the motor was working normally and the values read in seconds after cruise control gone.
Maybe somebody sees something?


no problem

seconds after problem shows
 
  #3  
Old 06-25-2019, 02:05 PM
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the Jaguar description of your codes, especially P1367, describe your problem pretty clearly!

What it comes down to, is that the Yellow/Green wire from each of the coil packs for cylinders 1, 2 and 3, join together to a single Yellow/Green wire that goes to Pin 131 of the ECU. This single wire is either broken, giving an open circuit or shorting to ground. Either of those two will cause a spark failure to cylinders 1,2 and 3, hence also getting the P0351, 353 and 355.

All the other wires to the coil packs are either individual that would not cause three cylinders to misfire together, or are common to all six coil packs (like the power supply and the ground circuits) and would cause all six cylinders to misfire if faulty.

Remember, it's a single Yellow/Green wire from the ECU up to a splice point where it divides into three, one to each coil pack. If the fault is a short to ground, that fault could be anywhere along the single or triple wire system, but if it's a break making an open circuit, then it has to be on the length of single wire as it affects all three coil packs.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/a...type-p1367.pdf
 
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  #4  
Old 06-26-2019, 01:04 AM
cly
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Originally Posted by Dell Gailey View Post
the Jaguar description of your codes, especially P1367, describe your problem pretty clearly!

What it comes down to, is that the Yellow/Green wire from each of the coil packs for cylinders 1, 2 and 3, join together to a single Yellow/Green wire that goes to Pin 131 of the ECU. This single wire is either broken, giving an open circuit or shorting to ground. Either of those two will cause a spark failure to cylinders 1,2 and 3, hence also getting the P0351, 353 and 355.

All the other wires to the coil packs are either individual that would not cause three cylinders to misfire together, or are common to all six coil packs (like the power supply and the ground circuits) and would cause all six cylinders to misfire if faulty.

Remember, it's a single Yellow/Green wire from the ECU up to a splice point where it divides into three, one to each coil pack. If the fault is a short to ground, that fault could be anywhere along the single or triple wire system, but if it's a break making an open circuit, then it has to be on the length of single wire as it affects all three coil packs.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/a...type-p1367.pdf
Thaks for Your reply!

Certainly I found this old answer already on this site.
As I wrote before the wiring is the only thing I didnt tried because of two reasons:
- cannot get easy to the connectors
- I think that if the wires are bad the problem were permanent and would be not correlating to motor temp or revs.

But I may be wrong. Can somebody confirm that with the temp and revs thing there can be still the wiring bad?

Regards,
Sandor
 
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:37 AM
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Really? Common sense tells you the answer. What happens when something gets warm/hot? Expansion. Does a shorting wire get warm/hot? Does the engine heat the wire?

If a wire has a small break and expands (sometimes internally in the sheathing and not optically visable) what happens?

Do the above attached (pdf) fault procedures.
 

Last edited by Dell Gailey; 06-26-2019 at 04:39 AM.
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Old 06-28-2019, 07:06 AM
cly
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Mission accomplished sir!
Every steps done, all values okay except the resistance to the ground, which was 12ohm instead of being below 5ohms.
I measured this value on a bank2 connector too and it was 12ohm too so I think it was because of bad ground point
I selected (the aluminium looking 10x10cm thing between the accu and the coolant tank but about 30cm below their top levels)
While each measuring I was moving the harness at every 5cm trying to emulate any rough conditions but the multimeter shows no diffs.

I understood the expansion theory but still dont have a clue how the increased revs can affect the situation (above ~2k rpm the problem
can vanish if wasnt present too long).

I took some photos during the operation, maybe somebody sees something.


Making some place to reach bank1's trafos.

I was refering that green thing as "injector" in text. Maybe I was wrong.

Injector's connector on the right has no clip.

Connectors without clips are fixed with black plastic lines.

Only #5 has clip. But I have P0355 too.

Dont know it maybe related: there is oil (?) in air tubes?


I made some scratches on each connector terminals to help conduction before pluging back.
I found that the injectors (?; the green things from alu-like straight tube looking into each intake) on bank 1 have
bad connectors. 2 of 3 have no clips but are kept in place via cable stabilizators (dont know in english; those black thin plastic lines).
I tried to move them and they were moving less than the connectors which have their clips in place so I think thats okay.

After putting everything together after my first tornado emulation below a hood of a car I found coolant level well below
minimum so I topped it up too. Maybe not related but You know

I cleared errors and started the engine.

*** The problem is gone at the moment. I tried to present it again in all the ways I could before without any success! ***
Giving a bullet to throttle I hear something weird but it may not related too, maybe nothing news just a long time was I
playing with throttle with an open hood. I put my phone on accu cover and recorded it, mp3 attached.

I dont understand what could solve the original problem but now I should cancel my appointment at Jaguar because I cannot present them the errors.
I am going to use the car today as much as possible, maybe the problem returns.

Meanwhile I am asking You all further help, advise or possible explanations what the hell is going here.
All other really not related problems You may identify in my post would be appreciated too but I will try to keep this thread focused on original problem.

Thanks & Regards
Sandor
 
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  #7  
Old 06-28-2019, 08:44 AM
cly
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Default here it is again

Cruise control msg again I read the dtc in seconds and P0351, P0353 were there in pending state.
Restarted the motor and no errors left.
After driving about 10 minutes P0105 shows up pending, but still no cruise control msg. P0105 disappeared in minutes.

So at the moment I dont know how to reproduce the error but it is still here somewhere.

Tried an other Android app: Car Scanner
It has oxygen sensor values per bank
I see bank 1 value is constantly changing during idle between 0.1v-0.78v while bank 2 is steady at 0.54v.
Maybe related?
 
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Old 06-29-2019, 08:25 AM
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You might be looking at different oxygen sensors than you think you are. An upstream (before the catalytic converter) sensor should be constantly changing. A downstream oxygen sensor should be steady.
 
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Old 06-29-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dh53 View Post
You might be looking at different oxygen sensors than you think you are. An upstream (before the catalytic converter) sensor should be constantly changing. A downstream oxygen sensor should be steady.
It may happen.
The sensor values were named "oxygen sensor 2 bank 1 voltage" and the same with bank 2.
There are two other oxygen calues displayed: "oxygen sensor 1 wide range current" and same with 5 instead of 1.
But these have no "bank" parts in their names.
Thatswhy I was thinking the behaviour diff between values of sensors having "bank" in their names may be related.
As I understood there are really two sensors on air intake.

Do You think that this symptom (ugly changing readings on the really problematic bank) cant be related to my missfire problem?
 
  #10  
Old 06-29-2019, 07:19 PM
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Yeah, well using "car scanner" free version is not much different than "torque" free version. It's pretty limited on what it reads. The difference in my "torque" from free to cheap purchase cost, showed all the O2 sensor inputs. That should answer your question. If not, bank 1 & 2 sensor #1(s) are the upstream ones.

http://www.autotap.com/techlibrary/u...en_sensors.asp
 

Last edited by Dell Gailey; 06-29-2019 at 08:24 PM.
  #11  
Old 06-30-2019, 11:36 AM
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I think you'll find the sensor 1s (upstreams) are Linear aka Wideband - which are not voltage-based but current-based, and do not normally cycle the way the cruder, old-style, downstreams are able to do (but being downstreams should not do much).

Or, to put it briefly: the upstreams should NOT be constantly changing (*).

(*) if they are indeed widebands as I think they are - see the electrical guide
 
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Old 06-30-2019, 12:37 PM
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The free version of Torque I have will read Bank 1 or Bank 2, sensors 1 through 4. If I monitor Sensor 1 on either bank I get the upstream O2 sensor voltage, Sensor 2 gives me the downstream O2 sensor voltage.

I can confirm with my Model Year 2005 3.0L, US model, the O2 sensors upstream and downstream are the type that bang back and forth between rich and lean, or between about 0 volts and about 0.8 volts. I had a bad catalytic converter so studied the outputs carefully and logged some data as shown in the picture below. I couldn't understand why Sensor 2 which is the downstream sensor was giving nearly the same signal as the upstream sensor until I pulled the catalytic off and found out it was hollow inside, nothing left of the catalyst!




 
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Old 06-30-2019, 03:27 PM
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I bought the paid Torque version and tried draw some graphs.
It showed only the sensors #2 active on both banks so I have no #1, #3 and #4 values on per bank basis.
It showed the same ugly jumping on the problematic bank1 and a steady value on same named sensor but on good bank2.

I bought the paid version of Car Scanner too because of subjective reasons and it showed the same sensors.

So on my car I have only sensor2 values per bank

After driving yet again my car without any problems popping up I saw that the bank1 values became steady too and the both bank's values are correlating now to same values.
I have about 10 hours to show me up at the Jaguar service and it seems like I would be unable to present them my problem

I was trying to reiterate all the steps I had done and didnt found any which could have solve the problem except one:
Maybe a fully dummy question but what would be the symptoms of this car if I had used it with coolant level well below minimum for months?
The engine temp indicator newer went above normal (but always started at cold side of the scale, so at last it worked .
***May it happen, that while the coolant level drops more and more first bank1 becomes affected and those missfire codes would appear?***

S
 
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Old 07-01-2019, 05:47 AM
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Referring to the X-Type electrical guides by year I cannot see a petrol car which does not have wideband upstream sensors. That type should not be swinging around (and certainly not at constant revs parked)...

I'd be very suspicious of any OBD tool showing the upstreams as non-wideband.
 
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Old 07-01-2019, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JagV8 View Post
Referring to the X-Type electrical guides by year I cannot see a petrol car which does not have wideband upstream sensors. That type should not be swinging around (and certainly not at constant revs parked)...

I'd be very suspicious of any OBD tool showing the upstreams as non-wideband.
There is an "Oxygen sensor 1 wide range current" and a same with #5 instead of #1, but this value isnt bank specific, it is only a single mA value.
I see the #1 and #2 sensors in the electrical guide for each banks, but on odb (torque and car scanner, both paid versions) only the #2s are active per bank.
In car scanner app I can search for sensor names.
If I search for "bank" only short/long fuel trim and and the #2 oxygen sensor values are available.
 
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Old 07-01-2019, 02:28 PM
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Note the description (upstream) as air fuel type sensor =

Jaguar X-Type Oxygen Sensor

Denso 234-9029 New Denso Air Fuel Ratio Sensor - Direct Fit Plug

compared to (downstream) description =

Jaguar X-Type Oxygen Sensor

Denso 234-4798 New Denso Oxygen Sensor - Direct Fit Plug



Wideband oxygen sensors, commonly referred to as air-fuel ratio sensors, tell the ECU how rich or lean the engine is running in comparison with the stoichoimetric ratio. Wideband oxygen sensors are commonly used in newer automobiles.




Vehicles equipped with an air-fuel ratio sensor have approximately 0.4V constantly applied to the sensor, which outputs a current that varies in accordance with the oxygen concentration in the exhaust gas. The ECU converts the changes in the output current into voltage allowing a response that is directly proportional to the input of the present air/fuel ratio in the exhaust system.
 

Last edited by Dell Gailey; 07-01-2019 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 07-02-2019, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by cly View Post
I bought the paid Torque version and tried draw some graphs.
It showed only the sensors #2 active on both banks so I have no #1, #3 and #4 values on per bank basis.
It showed the same ugly jumping on the problematic bank1 and a steady value on same named sensor but on good bank2.

I bought the paid version of Car Scanner too because of subjective reasons and it showed the same sensors.

So on my car I have only sensor2 values per bank

After driving yet again my car without any problems popping up I saw that the bank1 values became steady too and the both bank's values are correlating now to same values.
I have about 10 hours to show me up at the Jaguar service and it seems like I would be unable to present them my problem

I was trying to reiterate all the steps I had done and didnt found any which could have solve the problem except one:
Maybe a fully dummy question but what would be the symptoms of this car if I had used it with coolant level well below minimum for months?
The engine temp indicator newer went above normal (but always started at cold side of the scale, so at last it worked .
***May it happen, that while the coolant level drops more and more first bank1 becomes affected and those missfire codes would appear?***

S
The local Jaguar service point spent some hours with checking my car and found no possible reasons of my original P0351, P0353, P0355, P1367.
On the 40km road to them the car twice showed up P0351 and P0353, but only P0351 was persisted at the time I arrived.

*** It seems that since I filled the coolant tank to max level (the only real change I have done) the occurances of the errors rarefy and converge to zero. ***

Somebody can imagine an explanation how the coolant level could lead to such an errors?
May I calm down that the problem got solved?

S
 
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Old 07-04-2019, 04:08 AM
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After driving about 50km yesterday evening a P0420 was shown as pending error.
Today morning after driving 2km and reaching operational temp the errors P0351, P0353, P0355 and P1367 appeared as pending but later gone.
Coolant tank level is okay
I think the usual cycle of problem raising started, after some days I can reproduce the errors without any problems as could before.

Any ideas where to continue?
 
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Old 07-04-2019, 04:48 AM
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I found a tech doc here: http://www.teacher.starenvirotech.co...%2005-2004.pdf
There are some pages about misfire detection but after reading it I dont feel I understood it
Can somebody allocate some time and read it and try to find some tips according my problem?

S
 
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:45 AM
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Got a tip from an S-Type owner about faulty vacuum hoses. What do You think?
When I removed the intake manifold and disconnected the two vacuum hoses one of them was very easy to disconnect.
I dont know how hard it should be, but I didnt think it can hold any vacuums...



May this related to my problems?

S
 

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