I've only got 50K on the clock and wanted to change the fluid in the transmission -- nothing wrong yet, just a preventative thing.

I was thinking of having a Jag dealer do it in the hopes that they do it correctly.

The nearest Jaguar dealer is Palm Beach Motor Cars. I wonder if anyone has good/bad comments on their experience with the service department there?

 

the trans if filled for life,no service interval.

also depending on year the fluid is not cheap per liter

 

'Life' is less than 100k miles unless serviced.

See the discussions under 'transmissions' at this link:

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=29800

There are several AFT manufacturers claiming that they meet the Esso LT 71141 specification for about $5 per liter. I have never heard of any problem with using the Esso spec stuff unless the transmission was being serviced to attempt to correct an existing problem.

The Beemer boys regularly use the $5 ATF without any reported issues.

Perhaps if anyone that has had a transmission failure would report on this thread we might get a snap shot of the 'life' of the ZF 5HP24 transmission.

My first car's transmission failed at 82k miles and had never been serviced.

 

My 99XJR has been driven enthusiastically since I bought it new; at 122K+ miles, it still drives as new - the transmission has never been touched.
At 100K miles, I asked three different Jaguar dealers to change the transmission fluid - all refused, saying that, in their experience, changing the fluid frequently resulted in transmission trouble within the ensuing year. So I asked a Mercedes (manufacturer of the XJR tranny) dealer to do it - they said the same thing, but would do it IF I signed a legal waiver absolving them of any transmission woes that might follow.
So, despite my misgivings - it being nonsense, intuitively speaking, to think that the fluid still has the same performance characteristics after 11 years of use - I motor on happily with the original fluid. If 4 dealers, with all their experience and expertise, refuse to take my money, I figger there must be good reason.
If it breaks, I'll let the board know.


"I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals". GK Chesterton
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125

 

The XJR/XKR used a Merc transmission. The XJ8/XK8 used a ZF transmission that appears to have a little higher failure rate.

ZF now recommends a 60k mile service interval on their transmissions.

I believe the 'sealed for life' philosophy came out of the mid '90s warranty wars without much regard to reality.

 

From his other posts, I believe E21 has a SuperV8, which would have the Mercedes transmission.
I agree with you, Testy, it just ain't natural to not change the fluid, but so far so good (same deal with wife's Audi A6 - "sealed for life" - now with nearly 200K on the original transmission fluid, no problems....)
________
Weed Vaporizer

 

e21,

As you can see, there may not be an easy answer to a seemingly simple question. First, are you talking supercharged car or normally aspirated? I am not sure about the ZF tranny in the normally aspirated version, but the Mercedes unit in the XJR/XKR can be serviced fairly easily. I have read in several Mercedes forums (though I have not verified) that Mercedes North America no longer adheres to the "sealed for life" philosophy and recommends that the transmission be serviced regularly, although I don't recall on what service interval. 50K miles may be a bit early, but it would probably be between 60K and 100K. If Jaguar dealer won't do it, maybe there is a Mercedes dealer out there that will do it without requiring a waiver. If not, it can be done by any competent shop or at home if you prefer. Out of necessity, I did my own tranny service at 110,000 miles and it made a noticeable difference. The re-fill procedure is tricky and requires a little education, the dipstick tool, a way to measure fluid temp (either by computer diag or with IR gun on the fluid pan), and an eye for extreme cleanliness. But, its not rocket science either and shouldn't be intimidating to non-professionals.

As for "sealed for life," I have not yet seen a definition of "life" from Mercedes, Jaguar, Dodge (who uses it in the Charger SRT-8 and Sprinter) or any other manufacturer using the Mercedes 722.6, or from those using the ZF sealed for life transmissions. Sealed for the life of what? The life of the car, the transmission, the engine, the whole powertrain or drivetrain? If it is other than "the length of the warranty period," I would be interested to know what the manufacturers determined to be the typical life. If anyone knows, please share it. I suppose the question is not whether it is truly "sealed for life," but rather, whether its life can be extended or not by breaking the damn seal and giving it a little TLC. I suspect that Markus, having bought his XJR brand new 11 years ago, probably takes pretty good care of his cars. As a result, his runs like new and there is no need to shell out several hundred bucks for trans service, ever, so long as it continues to run great. Others, like myself, who paid dozens of dollars for a 10 year old used '99 XJR that was likely not cared for like Markus' XJR may be able to extend or even save the "life" of the tranny with a good flush and service performed at regular intervals (or maybe just once; can it be serviced and re-sealed for the next life or does breaking the seal then require service at regular intervals thereafter?). I have not heard of any harm done by properly flushing and servicing the transmission, or by using other than the spec Mercedes fluid when flushing. If documented danger exists, I would appreciate that info, too.

Be sure to let us know if your dealer will do it, or if you find a dealer that will. I'm also curious to know if you notice any difference after the service.

 

merc now recommends a 30k service interval on the w5a580 gear box that is used on the x308 s/c cars

i see zf 5hp24 x308 n/a failures around 80k ish you can get the esso oil in bult from a bmw dealer 20L bottles for a bit of savings

 

I changed my fluid, filter and gasket on my '01 NA X308. I got the fluid and gasket filter kit from Motorcars, LTD and the fluid was something like $15 a litre. There is a drain plug and a fill plug, nothing unusual, except that there is no dipstick and you have to have the car warmed up and running to top it up (which makes it a PITA). I personnally don't believe you need a computer to tell you if the temperature is within range, the range is stamped on the tranny pan and it's pretty wide. I did not flush it, but got a good 5 litres out and replaced. The fluid was thin and black and there was some grunge in the pan and on the four magnets in the bottom of the pan. My car had about 93K miles when I did it, and I'm glad I did it. To me, sealed for like means sealed until it fails which is likely to be soon after the warranty runs out.

 

A friend rebuilds transmissions.
He is very happy that people dont change their atf - it means he gets lots of work.

 

Just finished an overhaul on my 99 vdp naturally aspirated with the ZF 5hp24 transmission. I pumped the oil out of the torque converter with a hand pump and it was totally black. The car had only 54K miles on the clock at this point. I refilled the trans with pentosin fluid available at napa for $15 a litre. The fluid is made in germany and meets the Jag spec and esso/mobil spec. I felt comfortable with this fluid, almost put castrol multi import, but read a post on the bimmer forums with a reply directly from castrol saying that the viscosity of the castrol fluid was different. I plan on doing regular fluid change intervals. Personally I think letting the fluid degrade and then changing it is not a good idea, just my opinion. Also the issues that the dealers are saying cars have after changing the fluid may be because they waited too long, again my opinion. Good luck to all.

 

As a "bimmer(beemers are motorcyles)boy" I can state that the ZF 5hp24 fitted to BMs doesn't like "regular" ATF any better than the Jag unit. Use the specified oil, don't be pennywise and pound foolish.

As to lifetime fill; Phht, the lifetime is dictated by that of the fluid, if the fluid perishes so does your trans.
Regular servicing will greatly extend the life of the unit, provided a clutch drum doesn't break.
Lots of high mile BMW lifetime fill trannys, both ZF and GM, that have seen regular service. Few grow old on their original fill.

Oh, for the sake of statistics, the 5hp24 in our '98 XJ8 has croaked at barely 77k. It's not apart yet but reeks of an A drum failure.

 

I

 

Just did the fluid and filter on my 2001 XJR which uses the MB tranny.


Drained out about 4.5 litres. It was definitely coffee colored after approx. 75k miles. Did not smell burned but glad I changed it. Obviously this does not drain the torque converter but I think in another month I will just do a drain and fill.


I did attempt to replace the pilot bushing but could not get the new one to click in. (forget where I bought it). I thus used the O-rings from the new unit and put those on the old. Other than that, it was pretty easy (I do have a lift).


I do have the special dipstick for measuring the fluid. That simply confirmed that I put in about the same amount as I removed.


I regularly changed the tranny fluid on my older BMW's. Never had to do a rebuild, even after more than 300k miles. I personally think "lifetime fill" is nonsense.

 

Reading the tech info in the ZF website, they say that the fluid required was engineered to work specifically with this transmission accounting for the particular range of load, temperature and fluid viscosity. It is my opinion that many of the horror stories we hear about with these transmissions failing shortly after being serviced is because people do not demand to have the required fluid used when they let some shadetree, street corner, all in one mechanic shop perform the service. That is just my two cents. I've been doing some research because I'm about to have mine serviced, now at 109,000 miles. I bought from the second owner. A Texas only car. I let a little of the fluid drip out to check it this past weekend and it is dark grey. Definitely probably the original fluid. Ugh! I chalk this up to another of the countless cases of people who should not own these kinds of cars buying them once they become affordable and then skimping on all of the maintenance. If you cannot afford the maintenance of a luxury car then...News Flash...you cannot afford the car!

 

W/O getting into the weeds w/ technical stuff about hydraulic fluids and clutch packs -- you can't use color to determine fluid condition. Even viscosity changes are not indicative of bad fluid ... because the engineers designed in control to account for age.

And yes .. you are correct -- many were messed up by incorrect fluids and fill.

I lost my contact who worked in development -- so I don't know if the later units have programs planning on 30k changes.

My first full time equity job involved devising equipment to refresh hydraulic fluids in aircraft carriers and battle ships.

 

Hi Benj628,

You will find lots of discussions in these forums about correct transmission fluids and less-expensive alternatives to ZF Lifeguard 5 and 6, depending on the year and model of your Jaguar (it's helpful if you add this info to your signature so others don't have to ask).

For example, we know that ZF Lifeguard 6 and Ford Motorcraft Mercon SP are the same fluid.

And Lifeguard 5 is ESSO LT 71141. Some of the available equivalents include Febi Automatikgetriebeöl (ATF) Nr. 29738, VW/Audi G 052 162 A2, Pentosin ATF 1, and Ravenol ATF 4/5 HP. If you shop around you can save some money while giving your transmission exactly what it needs.

Before you judge previous owners of your car too harshly, bear in mind that both Jaguar and ZF initially claimed some of their transmissions were "sealed for life."

And before you judge shadetree mechanics too harshly, remember that a very high percentage of Jaguar Forums members proudly wear that badge, and many of them will surprise you with the depths of their knowledge, experience, and ability to understand and repair complex automotive systems.

Cheers,

Don

 

Don,
You are correct of course, my mistake! It's a shame the self-taught weekend driveway mechanics who do all of their own research to make sure they do it correctly are not the ones working at the local shops! Those guys are all about revolving door in and out service at the ultimate expense of the customer.
An update on my last post- I had the only local European shop we have perform a transmission fluid change and within a month it started to shift strangely and has never been right since! I told him all the proper procedure and fluid and even sent him the ZF instructional video. He got a little insulted and insisted that he knew what he was doing based on his experience. Now I have a 2003 XJ8 with a fidgety transmission. Damnit!

 

HI Ben,
Don't be so fast to blame the folks that did the work.
From your description of the nasty fluid(what you described is bad fluid regardless of what engineers may "have built in for age") and 109k on the original fill along with "strange" shifting(not slippage) I'd say there is a good chance your valve body needs some attention.
Another fluid service, this time dropping and cleaning the valve body might have things all right again. A second service is always desirable in these cases anyway as there is still plenty of the old contaminated fluid left behind with a normal service, ~ half is actually replaced so all you are really doing is diluting the bad oil with the fresh. Sometimes a third is needed.
None of this can compensate for the accelerated wear that occurs from all the friction material suspended in the oil for 100,000 miles but if it didn't fail quickly after the overdue service chances are good the trans still has life.
Don't get me started on "lifetime fill". I will say, in the BMW world at least, lifetime fill was roughly concurrent with free maintenance. Coincidence? Perhaps.