Hi my 1993 model year 3.2 litre Sovereign sits stricken on the drive with a transmission problem. It is the 3.2 litre version, so has the ZF 4HP22 transmission - the same all-hydraulic one as the 3.6 litre cars. The 3.2 wasn't sold in the USA and did not get the upgrade to the electronically controlled transmission.

I don't use the car very often, so it had become a little dusty. I decided to wash it and since the driveway has a slope, I turned on the ignition but did not start the engine and let the car roll out of the garage. I did this so that I would only have to fire up the engine once and also so that if the brakes are binding (thankfully they seem OK) it would be noticeable in a reluctance to roll out of the garage.

Once out of the garage I saw a small but noticeable patch of ATF on the garage floor. It does not normally leak ATF, so this concerned me immediately.

I checked the ATF level to see if it was lower (I had not started the engine or followed the checking procedure, so this was more of an indication than a proper measurement).

To my surprise it registered very high indeed - a good 3/4" over the white plastic part on the dipstick. I have not put any ATF in since I changed it at least 2 years ago. When I have looked at the dipstick in the past with the car having sat for a period, the level has not risen like this - it has stayed at a constant level lower on the dipstick's white part. The ATF itself does not look burned:

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It have heard that a failure in the radiator can cause coolant to enter the transmission, so the first thing I checked after the transmission oil was the coolant level. This was correct, so presumably the problem is not this. I imagine that the increased volume of fluid in the sump to show such a big rise on the dip stick would leave the header tank empty - or at least notably reduced.


At this point and with a heavy heart, I started the car. The engine caught with a wobble felt through the whole car and it ran rough and (IIRC) slower than normal. The transmission made a frothing sound. I briefly tried to see if I could put the car back in the garage (it has died in the part of the drive which will make the car difficult to recover with a tow truck) - it moved forward very reluctantly and with a great deal of slip. I only tried this for a couple of seconds and shut the engine down since I know nothing about transmissions and don't want to cause any more damage which I could have avoided!

What could have caused this? Does it sound like the torque converter has failed in some way? - Could the ATF in the torque converter have drained into the sump pan for some reason? - It normally sits there no matter how long the car is parked up and doesn't drain into the sump doesn't it? Would a failed torque converter cause fluid to flow into the transmission sump?

This problem has come on very suddenly. The last time I drove the car was several weeks ago, but the car ran perfectly with no strange behaviour.

It is not without symptoms though which in retrospect could be transmission related.
The car will occasionally produce a strange and slight vibration (like the engine is not quite happy rather than a rough road surface) as speed increases. This is highly intermittent. I actually ruled it out from being transmission related since the vibration does not stop if the transmission is put in neutral. In retrospect, I may have been wrong to think this! The transmission also occasionally thumps into drive and reverse more than it should, but the car's engine idles slightly high. The idle speed was turned up slightly (presumably at the ECU) by a Jaguar main dealer in the mid 1990s to cure a stalling problem as the car came to a halt at junctions. My late father owned the car back then.

The car is not in a position on the drive which will make recovering it with a tow truck easy. Do I risk causing further damage to the transmission if I move the car forwards (up the hill on the drive) to a better place.

I don't fancy my chances of pushing a car of this weight up the hill! Still, I will have a good go if running the car could further damage the transmission!

Thanks for you time,

David

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Hi David,

Sorry to hear about the troubles with your beautiful Jaguar.

First of all, in my experience you cannot rely on any check of the transmission fluid level except when the transmission is hot, the car is on a level surface, and you have held the brake pedal down and run the gear selector lever through all the gears, pausing at each one for about 3 seconds or more, then moving the lever back to Park. Your high fluid reading was probably due to the car sitting on a slope, perhaps in combination with the car having not run for several weeks.

There are a few places where transmission fluid can be lost, including the front and rear seals of the transmission, the cooler lines and their fittings at the transmission and radiator, or the fluid pan gasket or drain plug. You should be able to find the source of the leak by inspecting carefully with a good flashlight/torch.

Cheers,

Don

 

Thanks for that, Don.

It seems to be leaking from somewhere high up on the front of the transmission. I am going to change the fluid just to make sure there is no water in it leaking from the radiator. I think this is very unlikely since the header tank is normal and these Jaguars don't seem prone to airlocks. But I may as well to be sure. I will suck it out with a vacuum pump, then replace it with new Dexron III. I would prefer to drop the sump pan too and replace the filter/have a look, but I am struggling with some back and neck problems at the moment and don't have axle stands to hand either - so sucking the ATF will have to do! It will at least show me if there is any coolant in it if nothing else. I should think ATF will float on the coolant, won't it?

After that, I will have a try starting it and will let it run to see if it re-fills the torque converter. That won't kill it, I shouldn't think - I hope not anyway!

David

by https://www.flickr.com/photos/93150548@N03/, on Flickr

 

David,

If I were in your position and the fluid looked as good as yours does AND there was no evidence of coolant on the dipstick AND no transmission fluid in the radiator/header tank (no beads of coolant or sludge anywhere), I'd just leave the fluid where it is.
The fluid is pretty "pinky" and it doesn't get much better than that!

Although I have the later transmission on my car, I just dipped the fluid with engine off and cold and my fluid registers just as high as yours.....As you're bound to go ahead and start it again at some point, I 'd say go ahead and start the car now, let it warm up and and damn the torpedos!!!

 

Hi David,

In studying your photos of the wet side of the transmission, my first question is: are you certain that it is transmission fluid that is leaking? The most likely leak in that area is engine oil leaking from the half-moon rubber seals at the firewall end of the camshaft cover and dripping down the bellhousing and over the side of the transmission. It would be worth checking the passenger side of the camshaft cover gasket for any signs of leaking oil, especially near the firewall.

If it definitely is transmission fluid that is leaking, you're going to have to get a good inspection mirror or a borescope camera up there to see where it's coming from. I can't recall, but there may be a breather vent on top of the gearbox.

Cheers,

Don

 

"Damn the torpedos" - I like that!

I think you were right with your suggestion to just to leave the fluid where it is but since I had already bought it, I decided to remove a couple of litres of fluid from the pan. I was as sure as I could be that there was no coolant getting in to the transmission - by the colour of it and by the correct level of the coolant in the header tank. Even so, I reasoned that if there was coolant in the transmission, then it would either mix in with the atf causing an oleaginous mess (most likely) or separate and sit at the bottom of the sump since atf is lighter than water. By taking out a couple of litres, I felt I would see evidence of water or burning in the fluid and nothing was lost, since I had already bought it!

The atf I removed seemed OK. Not completely clean and brand new, but then it isn't. No evidence of any problems in it, I didn't think.

So I started up the car and ...it ran normally! It was slightly less 'clean' than usual - a bit more start-up vibration, but it settled to a normal and smooth idle. It took up drive and reverse normally and I put it back in the garage. I will take it out for a drive around later.

So, it is either a self-fixing Jaguar, or a neurotic owner! - You decide! Either way I am very pleased and relieved, though I will have it checked out in case this episode has been a harbinger of problems to come - and to get to the bottom of the leak. Strangely, the transmission appears to have stopped leaking though - at least at first glance, but maybe it needs to be at full temperature to leak.

Thanks for your help on this, I do appreciate it.

David

 

Thanks for your help on this, I appreciate it. Hopefully, the loss of drive problem is actually an imaginary one and doesn't come back to haunt me!

The fluid is definitely atf. The engine has wept oil from the half-moon rubber seals at the back of the cam cover in the past which I cured by fitting a new gasket a year or two back, so some of the staining could be and probably is, historic. But the fluid on the floor of the garage was definitely atf. It doesn't seem to have leaked further, but it could be the transmission needs to reach full operating temperature in order to lose fluid. I intend to have the transmission checked out though, just in case there is a problem with it.

Thanks for your help!

David.

 

Imagine how much a fool I would have felt if I had called out a tow truck to recover the car, tried in vain to push it up the drive then given up and started the car - only to find there was nothing wrong with it!

The great wonder of forums!

 

David - Excellent news -- and BTW did you check the level again as Don said, i.e. hot and by moving through all the gears etc? What was the reading then? Maybe it was overfilled before and if there is a breather up top, there's a good chance the fluid did originate there ...

My guess on the rough running on startup (after a bit of a layup or continual short drive use) would be the usual buildup of sludge pooling down in the intake ...might be time for a mucking out, may as well do it before the sunny days disappear, eh?

[note to self] >practice what you preach!

all the best

Larry

 

I haven't checked it yet - but I will!

 

In reading all of this, my first thought is that you became a little anxious. Don't forget that the power steering unit uses ATF and the hydraulic hoses do tend to leak at the reservoir. As a side note. I had a terrible stalling problem with my 93 4.0 XJ6 last year. It turned out that the garage that changed the fluid did not refill it to the correct level and the torque converter was locking up at idle. I had the fluid changed subsequently at a different garage and the problems ceased.

 

I thought I should update this thread now that a period of time has passed since the problem.

I have had no further trouble with it. The car runs smoothly with the transmission shifting as it should. The transmission stopped leaking immediately after the problem and has continued to be leak free.

I had it checked out by a specialist - and he could not find anything wrong with it, so one-off oddity and a lucky escape from a big bill for me there!

David.