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1967 3.8S Refurbishment

  #1  
Old 09-27-2018, 11:56 PM
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Default 1967 3.8S Refurbishment

Hello everyone,

Just saying hello and settling in here to a new forum area, having sold off a '73 XJ6 earlier this year and very recently acquired a '67 3.8S project. I'm not sure where this one will go beyond getting it running/driving, so I don't know if I'll make this a project thread, but I suspect I might need your collective wisdom nonetheless.

The car is a British-market 3.8S, right hand drive, originally gold sand (now white) with red interior, automatic, steel wheels. In that regard, nothing special. Imported to the US in 1980, the prior owner was told that this was an American embassy car in London (UK registration VEV 337E), but I have nothing to support that and there's an interesting 1969 video of Nixon in London that shows black S-types, not gold, accompanying the motor pool.

Driven sparingly from 1994 until around 2011, the body shows some rust and was clearly given a shoddy white paint job in the 80's or 90's. But it is very complete and otherwise correct, it seems, and I suspect that it has 122,000 miles on it. With oil distributed everywhere, it turns over fine and has compression. Virtually all electrical seems to work. I'm currently going through the usual efforts to fire it up, including rebuilding the carbs, flushing fuel tanks (tanks and pumps replaced in the 90's, both pumps work and flow fuel), hoses, belts, wiring, etc. Will turn the key in the next week or two.

Peter

 
  #2  
Old 09-28-2018, 08:52 AM
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Welcome & good luck with the project. Reminiscent of how my car started. White over red and 2 X white donor cars. One of which was really a shell with suspension.
I'm also settling in here now that my car is finished. I'm a Mod over at MBWorld ~ another Internet Brands Forum.
 
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Old 09-28-2018, 03:29 PM
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I have some parts if you need any. Visit my Classic S type Parts website and you can download the Service and Parts Manuals free.

www.classicstypeparts.webstarts.com
 
  #4  
Old 09-30-2018, 11:27 PM
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S-type refurb part 2: I am super-excited as I hope to start the S-type tomorrow night! I still don't know if this will become the kind of project that my last Jaguar was (thread here), but you might be interested to share in the dust-off and startup. As mentioned above, this is a recently acquired '67 3.8S, RHD auto. I believe the 122K miles to be accurate, and I think it last ran in 2011, so not really very long ago.

I started with the usual visual assessment and checked for fluids (all present and clean). I pulled the airbox and did the carburetor 'prostate exam' - and sure enough, the rear carb needle was stuck. So, off they came to be rebuilt. I attached a new battery and started checking all of the electrical -- amazingly, almost everything seems to work, including both fuel pumps (the tanks and pumps were replaced at some point in the previous owner's tenure). I removed the cam covers, and pulled the spark plugs. After dousing the cams and cylinders with penetrating oil and letting it soak, I tried turning it over -- needed to push-button the solenoid as it doesn't seem to trigger off the ignition, but the motor turned over fine and has compression. The car had a mechanic-installed ignition ballast resistor, and it smoked lightly upon being energized...


I ordered the usual consumables, and also decided to immediately convert to an electronic ignition (Pertronix) and modern coil. Installation started as the parts arrived, including dismantling, cleaning, lubricating and reassembling the Lucas 22D distributor with the Pertronix unit, and installing the fresh cam cover gaskets and o-rings, new thermostat, housing gasket, otter switch gasket, radiator hoses, and fan belt.

While dismantling the carburetors, I found both floats to have gas in them. Arrrgghh. New ones are on their way, should arrive tomorrow. Meanwhile, I finished cleaning and reassembling them, including resetting the float height. The airbox was cleaned, and a new air filter installed. I drained the fuel tanks,and ran new fuel through the lines, and replaced the fuel filter. Just need those darn floats!

The prior owner enjoyed the car while it ran, but wasn't able to maintain it. He stopped using it when it didn't start one day in 2011. That may have been due to the starter solenoid, or the gummed up carbs, or the smoking ignition, or something I haven't discovered yet. But I do know that he didn't drive it many miles from when he bought it in 1992 until now. So I fully expect it to fire right up... but you never know for sure...



















 

Last edited by Pabarlow; 09-30-2018 at 11:39 PM.
  #5  
Old 10-01-2018, 03:38 AM
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I had 2 X sinking floats in mine & replaced both. Also fitted Pertronix pointless ignition with debranded Flamethrower coil. Pertronix fortunately makes for Positive Earth. She starts on a button now.

For the strict DIY'ers one needs to be very careful degassing & resoldering those brass floats. They can explode spectacularly when too much heat is applied.
 

Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 10-01-2018 at 04:26 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-03-2018, 10:06 AM
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Default Looking for a water rail / outlet pipe

Well, the good news is that she fired and ran smoothly and quietly. I'm very happy with that. The bad news is that she spewed gasoline and coolant, so it was a brief run.

The gas leak is simple, gaskets on banjo boats - I had replaced the ones on the bowl breather lines, but not on the fuel feed lines. Parts on their way.

The coolant leak is a little tougher. Where the otter switch sending unit mounts, through corrosion and (probably) broken-bolt damage, the holes have been moved and the mounting area is generally awful. I either need to get it welded up and re-machined, or replace the water rail / outlet pipe Part C.15800. I know that the part is similar from mid-fifties XK150's through MK2's and 340's, but I gather some various mounting bosses changed over the years. Anyone have one?
 

Last edited by Pabarlow; 10-03-2018 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Add photo
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:53 AM
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Just be careful which manifold you get. The S Type manifold has a narrower radiator bypass slot than earlier models. This allows coolant to circulate through the block for even & quick warm up before the thermostat opens. Prevents hot spots in the engine.

S Type slot




Larger slot on early manifolds and the thermostat shroud draws up to cover. Reverse of S Type.



Only use thermostat C3731/1 which closes the bypass slot when it opens and ensures that most coolant goes through the radiator for maximum cooling rather than some recirculating via the water pump through the block as this can lead to overheating. Do not use regular thermostats without the moving shroud. You want ALL coolant to circulate through the radiator once the thermostat is open.

For racing Jaguar used to block the bypass hose between the waterpump & thermostat housing.



 

Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 10-03-2018 at 01:12 PM.
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  #8  
Old 10-03-2018, 12:06 PM
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Water Outlet is C15800/2 which is the same as some MK2 3.4 and 3.8 but not the 340. Glyn, I don't recognise the thermostat number C37371/1, thermostat listed is C27650, although the parts book illustrates the one you have pictured above, it lists C27650 as the number, but that does not look like the one you have pictured. Any clues ?
 
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TilleyJon View Post
Water Outlet is C15800/2 which is the same as some MK2 3.4 and 3.8 but not the 340. Glyn, I don't recognise the thermostat number C37371/1, thermostat listed is C27650, although the parts book illustrates the one you have pictured above, it lists C27650 as the number, but that does not look like the one you have pictured. Any clues ?
Yes it's an error in the parts manual & on the SNG Barratt website as a result. C27650 is the wrong thermostat for an S Type. Picture in parts manual is correct!

Barratts have put the correct thermostat back into production themselves using modern technology.


 

Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 10-03-2018 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:17 PM
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C27650 does look wrong as the body would not close the slot, but I cannot find the C37371/1 stat on SNG or DG Manners, what supplier keeps the correct one ?
 
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:18 PM
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Thank you both, much appreciated. Yes, narrow-slot rail and yes, it has a generic/wrong thermostat. Do you know a source for the correct one? I fear most of the US suppliers, and Barrat, will send the one with without the larger housing for blocking the slot.
 
  #12  
Old 10-03-2018, 12:19 PM
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We posted over one another. See my edit above.
 
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:22 PM
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Barratts had a big run on them when they reintroduced because the alternative specialist thermostat requires the thermostat housing to be machined.
 
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:37 PM
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Thanks again. Thermostat ordered. And will keep looking for a better water rail, or get this one welded up. (Trying to upload photo, but it isn't cooperating which I know has been an issue lately here at JaguarForums for some. )
 
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:39 PM
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This damn error has caused more overheating issues with S Types than you could possibly know.
 

Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 10-03-2018 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:08 PM
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Got it now, typo on your earlier post, part number C3731/1 not C37371/1, I was being dumb.

Same part no issue in the MK2 parts book, same C27650 listed which is incorrect for that water pipe.

Interestingly D Manners show the C3731/1 superseded to C27650, and list it for MK2 and S Type, which thermostat housing takes the C27650 stat ?
 

Last edited by TilleyJon; 10-03-2018 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:14 PM
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Oh I apologise ~ I have corrected. It's me being a blockhead with P/N's.

I don't know where the C27650 belongs. I originally thought on one of the 4.2's with the front mounted thermostat but some of them have a bypass arrangement in the thermostat itself.

It's possible that they thought that by slimming down the bypass slot it would work but it does not in hot climes & I even have a "tropical" radiator. But then why have a C3731/1 & draw it in the manual. Does not make sense?? I'm pleased I researched the matter because I did not want to cook my new engine. I have an inquiring mind and could not understand why the picture looked different to conventional thermostats. So I asked the question of Gerald Williams our Cape Town Jag spares man & he only stocks C3731/1's for 3.8's & told me why. Then I got on the forums etc & found a load of info. I noticed the different slots. Gerald did not know that. I could not find anybody that did.
 

Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 10-03-2018 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 10-03-2018, 04:59 PM
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C27650 seems to be for the MK2 2.4 water pipe C15799, and it looks right on the diagrams.

Stat C20766/2 supersedes to C3731/1 on SNG but on D Manners it supersedes to C27650, this stat business is a mess !

C20766/2 fits the E Type 3.8 with water pipe C15905 they also list a stat at C12867/2 which also supersedes to C3731/1 on SNG but on D Manners it shows as C27650

Water Pipe C15905 from the 3.8 MK X has the same slot and stat listed is C20766, there is a later water pipe C23550 not pictured which may be the slimmer slot ?

Stat C3731/1 also fits the early MK1 which also has slot in the water pipe, but thermostat is oriented differently.

Probably far too much info, but interesting none the less.
 

Last edited by TilleyJon; 10-03-2018 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:46 PM
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Indeed it is a mess. All I'm interested in is that thermostat C3731/1 is correct for the narrow slot 3.8 engine & prevents overheating caused by recirculation of hot coolant. We want all coolant to go through the radiator once the thermostat opens. I hope we have helped a few people.
 

Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 10-04-2018 at 06:29 AM.
  #20  
Old 10-10-2018, 01:08 AM
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Continued progress on the S-type:

Starts "on the button", as they say, choke/enrichment working as it should, new ignition is excellent, carbs are good. Engine and exhaust is very quiet. Temperature comes up quickly and then sticks just right, no issues at all (and my new fancy/correct thermostat is here, too). I'd like the oil pressure gauge to read a little higher than it does, but I've been through this before and will blame the sending unit first - will replace it and see if it's better.

Transmission (auto) seems OK. Goes through all gears fine, shifts smoothly. And leaks a bunch of fluid... so need to start that process, with the easily replaceable items (e.g., pan gasket) first, and then deciding where to go from there.
Brakes are surprisingly excellent! They have been rebuilt in the past, with obvious evidence on the calipers and lines. Hand brake too. I'm happy not to have to dive into those right away, other than a planned fluid flush.
Steering is pretty good, add power steering fluid and , lo and behold, power steering! But having spent some time underneath it, the inner and outer ball joints need replacing and I suspect the front suspension hasn't been touched.

Main issue, holding me to 4 or 5 miles of evaluation so far, is that it keeps running out of gas in spite of a full tank. (Reminder that I drained both tanks and refilled, replaced the engine compartment filter, and the pumps work fine.) The right tank, while the pump makes all the right noises, is not providing any fuel. The left provides gas for a while, but either isn't giving adequate flow, or else is somehow only drawing from the very top of the tank. First check was the vent tubes, which seem to blow through/out fine on both tanks. So, I guess I need to pull the filters out of both tanks and take a look, which I guess I should have done in the first place...

Meanwhile, I'm happy with how much stuff seems to work on the car! All gauges but clock, all lights in and out, signals, wipers, heater fans, heater controls, windows, etc. But the throttle switch for the anti-creep is missing, and I don't have a windshield washer reservoir or pump. Still, all in all, pretty good for a driving S.
 

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