Can someone please give me some input on what they think of my freeze frame data. I've been having P0420 / P0430 problems for about a year and would like some info on what they think could be possible issues.

2000 Jaguar S-Type 3.0
DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODES
Code Definition
P0430 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 2)
P0420 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)

MONITOR STATUS
Monitor Status
MIL -ON
MisFire Monitor -Complete
Fuel System Monitor -Complete
Comprehensive Component Monitor -Complete
Catalyst Monitor -Complete
Heated Catalyst Monitor -Not Supported
Evaporative System Monitor -Not Complete
Secondary Air System Monitor -Not Supported
A/C System Refrigerant Monitor -Not Supported
Oxygen Sensor Monitor -Complete
Oxygen Sensor Heater Monitor -Complete
EGR System Monitor -Not Complete

FREEZE FRAME DATA
PID Description Unit Value
DTC for which Freeze Frame was Stored P0420
Fuel System 1 Status: Closed Loop
Fuel System 2 Status: Not Supported
Calculated LOAD Value: 60.39%
Engine Coolant Temp: 204.80 F
Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1: -1.56%
Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1: 2.34%
Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2: -5.47%
Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2: 7.03%
Fuel Rail Pressure: 39.57 psi
Engine RPM: 1822 rpm
Vehicle Speed Sensor: 21.13 mph

I have posted it on another thread and got some input on it (thanks jagv8) but was wondering what others thought of these values.
Why does my Evap system monitor and EGR system monitor say not complete?
I did have the battery off disco'd and codes cleared a couple of weeks ago, so I was wondering if the drive cycles on these monitors were complete.
Also, why does Fuel System 2 status show 'Not Supported' and Fuel System 1 status show 'Closed Loop'?
What about my long term fuel trim and fuel rail pressure values?
Are these normal?

Here's the link to the other thread I started a couple months ago asking if the 4.0 and 3.0 cats were interchangeable.
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=21340

 

The things I notice is calculated load and LTFT.

The LTFT isn't too bad but the problem is the fact that it is pretty uneven, usually indicating a vaccuum leak. I'm not familiar with the v6's but I do know some of the Jaguar v8's use MAP sensors. If the V6 does, and you do have a vaccuum leak, this would explain the LTFT and calculated load.

 

I don't remember all that you have done? The PCV elbows are a known problem on the V-6. There are two and it requires the removal of the intake manifold. These cause vacuum leaks and will set a code like you have. At that time I would also strongly recommend changing the coils and plugs at least on that side of the motor. If any oil is found in the coil boots be sure and change the cam/valve cover gaskets!!
.
.
.

 

Thanks tbird6, I also recommended he did those. He's a high-mileage old car, as I recall. Not much sense fitting new cats if the upstream stuff may be causing problems.

 

S.Typer - A read of this might interest you, but first go after the fairly easy stuff already mentioned.

http://www.epa.state.il.us/air/vim/p...eview/2007.pdf

 

I know I'm not part of this thread but Thanks anyway jagV8. I've either book marked or saved the various reference stuff you've posted on this forum. Very helpful and informative and I for one really appreciate the information.

 

You're welcome!

I found the existence of "the book" very interesting. Who'd you want to work on an awkward emissions/OBD problem...

 

"Fuel System 2 Status: Not Supported"

I am pretty new to the S-type and Jag world too...

But I think the reason for the code above is because the V6 only has one "fuel rail". Some larger engines such as V8s, V10s and V12s have multiple fuel rails the injectors feed off of.

All 6 of the injectors on the 3.0L V6 S-type (at least my '02 variety) feed off of one fuel rail.

I could be wrong about this, but that is my understanding as to why we get the above code on the 3.0L.

I'm still getting an occassional P0420 even after complete plug and coil pack change out a month or two ago. Only once in 250-400 miles. Still I do not like it much. I have not decided if I dislike it enough to invest the $$$ in new Cats yet though! The L<=>R swapping the post-Cat sensors did not seem to do the trick.

 

It's not going to be fuel rail dependent, the control system is sensors, actuators and especially software

If there are O2 sensors in both cats, that's because the control system uses them. If it didn't, jag would've saved the cost of some of them!

I see some possibilities:
1. the OBD tool being used is not very good
2. implausibly, but possibly, jag intended to use the O2s but found the chosen PCM could not do it (too slow, maybe) - but I think they'd have saved the cost of the O2s and if the cats were already made then fitted blanking plates

In favour of 2 is that I believe the early cars use the P-TECH PCM whereas I think the later ones are from Denso. I wish there were a wrecker with jags in nearby

I also wish I knew someone with an early 3.0 car so I could plug my OBD in!

Even my previous (1994-era) Ford V6 2.9 had twin cats, each with 2 O2s, and both banks would run CL or OL. Only one fuel system (single pump, single pressure regulator, etc).

I'd suggest buying a cheap OBD lead with an ELM327 chip off fleabay except the free software won't draw graphs (or save CSV files, which would've let you use OpenOffice etc to draw them). I bought one of those leads (mine's USB on the laptop end) to see what it could do (very cheap) and will maybe buy software to go with it. Meantime, I wanted to really dig into the car's modules so bought the AutoEnginuity lead and jag-enhanced software. Not cheap. Quite good but I'd like even better.

The Elm would tell you whether bank2 has its own fuel status - but this is a kinda expensive way to find out! Can't you find friends with OBD tools?

 

Hey guys thanks for the input.

Thanks for the link JagV8

Those easy things are what I'm going to do first:
-Lower Breather Elbow
-Valve cover gaskets/boss seals
-3 new coils and plugs (pass. side)
-IMT seals (i think i noticed some oil leaks around the one behind the manifold)
-upper and lower intake manifold gaskets (do those go bad ever?)
-breather T hose (maybe)

Do I need to take off the windshield wipers/rail to get at the last two bolts in the back?

Do the manifold gaskets ever leak? A jag tech at one of the service centers near me and one on this forum stated that it doesn't need changing usually. It's normally the issues above that need the changing.

Do our cars have a PCV valve? Or is it just elbows and a tube?

Also I have re read the codes the other day and loaded them on my computer. I had a freeze frame code P0171.
I'll load them up too. It showed that my Fuel System 2 was a CL-Fault.

 

Here it is:

Report Date: 10-10-2009 (8:14 PM)
Vehicle Year: 2000
Vehicle Make: Jaguar
Vehicle Model: S-Type
Vehicle Engine Size: 3.0
Vehicle VIN:
Vehicle License Plate:
Vehicle Mileage: 129000

Stored:
P0420 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)
P0430 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 2)


MIL: ON
MisFire Monitor: Complete
Fuel System Monitor: Complete
Comprehensive Component Monitor: Complete
Catalyst Monitor: Complete
Heated Catalyst Monitor: Not Supported
Evaporative System Monitor: Not Complete
Secondary Air System Monitor: Not Supported
A/C System Refrigerant Monitor: Not Supported
Oxygen Sensor Monitor: Complete
Oxygen Sensor Heater Monitor: Complete
EGR System Monitor: Complete

Freeze Frame Data was stored for - P0171
Fuel System 1 Status: Closed Loop
Fuel System 2 Status: Closed Loop - Fault
Calculated LOAD Value: 25.88%
Engine Coolant Temp: 203.0 °F
Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1: 3.91 %
Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1: 41.41 %
Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2: 3.13 %
Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2: 41.41 %
Fuel Rail Pressure: 39.60 psi
Engine RPM: 711 rpm
Vehicle Speed Sensor: 0 mph

What do ya'll think?

 

I don't have a 3.0 or know what its gaskets are like but BugDoc posted about some of this (worth reading) and most gaskets harden or shrink so unless they feel like new I'd be likely to buy a full set before starting with a plan to fit new ones. If they're reasonably cheap I'd just buy and fit. If you can cope with the car off the road for days, you can potentially strip it down and decide exactly what to buy. (Not an option for me.)

 

OK - panic. You have huge fuel trims

Anything around 25% (or -25%) would be reason to worry. You add STFT & LTFT so yours are 45%.

They're + (not -) so the PCM is adding lots of fuel to stay CL. I'm amazed it's running CL at all!

You have a big problem with air. There are plenty of possibilitites so don't jump to conclusions as to what the problem is.

It could be a MAF that's under-reading

It could be an air leak - one of those pipes, for example.

Etc.

You may be able to listen for a hiss, and if you hear one then it's an air leak.

You should hope you don't have two faults, as then it'll be a harder task figuring them out.

You need it working with sane fuel trims and if it were my car I'd be fixing it ahead of anything else.

If you'd a more-capable OBD scanner you could do things like looking at trims and MAF at idle then raising the revs to see how (or if) they change. The alternative is good old-fashioned air leak hunting, measuring MAF voltage (perhaps) and so on.

Or - do what BugDoc did! He figured that at the age and mileage a ton of things just needed changing and doing so would most likely fix most if not all the problems. Which is true. You may change some that actually were OK but none of them are unaffordable (er, depending a bit on your pocket).

Definitely read his threads. Figure out if you can do those jobs. If not, you need a competent mechanic (whether a jag one or not). If any of the techs who post here are near you, plan a visit if you can't do the job yourself

You probably do NOT want to change cats until you've fixed that air issue because either they're OK or if they're not then the last thing you want to do is risk new ones.